Messages In This Digest (6 Messages)
- 1a.
- cultural appropriation From: Roxanne Bodsworth
- 1b.
- Re: cultural appropriation From: tiddlywinksoldbean
- 1c.
- Re: cultural appropriation From: ozpagan
- 1d.
- Re: cultural appropriation From: ozpagan
- 2a.
- Re: PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi From: aradia_weaver
- 2b.
- Re: PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi From: cottytosmaid
Messages
- 1a.
-
cultural appropriation
Posted by: "Roxanne Bodsworth" roxanne_bodsworth@yahoo.com.au roxanne_bodsworth
Wed Feb 2, 2011 4:29 pm (PST)
Why am I not surprised that the self-righteous self-appointed guardians of cultural artefacts have jumped on this and condemned Diane Wolkstein telling an Aboriginal story without first acquainting themselves with the facts. If you would like to borrow 'Sun Mother Wakes the World' from your local library then you can read the back section which explains exactly what steps have been taken to ascertain where the story came from and to make contact with those Aboriginal people who might still remain and know something of the story. She is a mythologist of great integrity with intense respect for the cultures whose stories she tells, which includes Australian, Chinese, Sumerian, Russian and countless others. If you don't want to go and see her, then don't but don't spread your misinformed bitterness. And thanks for all those who stood up for her as a storyteller.
Roxanne Bodsworth Eldorado VIC 3746
(03)57 251806
www.sunwyse.com.au
"creative writers are valuable allies... for they are apt to know a whole host of things between heaven and earth of which our philosophy has not yet let us dream." Sigmund Freud
---
_____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
1a. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com. carteblanche13au
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 9:43 am ((PST))
"Cultural theft", Cotty? I wasn't aware that telling a story removed it from its source in any way. In fact, I was under the distinct impression that it did PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE. That's why books exist (you have heard of those, presumably?).
Presumably that is the whole point of why Wolkenstein specialises in storytelling. TO TELL STORIES.
What amuses me perhaps more than this, is that Leif is not an Aboriginal Australian. Ms. Wolkenstein, too, is not an Aboriginal Australian.
The puzzle for me is this:
If (according to Leif's hypothesis) Ms. Wolkenstein (non-Aboriginal) has no business in transmitting an Aboriginal story, how can it be Leif's (a non-Aboriginal) business to object to her doing so?
!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
If it's not her stuff, how is it his stuff? How has any aboriginal been adversely affected by this?
What do our indigenous forum members think?
What is more noxious: 1. White urban middle-class neopagans with a racially-defined worldview getting their knickers in a twist over something that isn't any of their business, or
2. white middle-class storytellers enthusing in your cultural heritage and trying to embrace it through sharing it with the wider community at a prestigious cultural (21st century-cultural, I mean) event?
CB
Best regards
C.B.
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@com ...> wrote:
> Cultural theft is something I find abhorrent.. always have, always will.
Messages in this topic (12)
_____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
1b. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com. carteblanche13au
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 10:32 am ((PST))
Leif, two questions:
a) What qualifies you to stand up for, or (as you put it) "empower" , aboriginals?
b) How is this qualification superior to Ms. Wolkenstein's qualifications for telling stories?
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , Leif Njordsson <godhi@...> wrote:com
> I lived on a Queensland Aboriginal reserve for 14 months and saw a lot of empowered people there - not!
Maybe they need more kind people sharing traditional Aboriginal stories to empower them?
Regards
C.B.
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@com ...> wrote:
>
> Just how the ratbag element can find "racism" in such sentiments beggers belief.
Leif's objection was that Ms. Wolkenstein is not aboriginal, but is telling a story from aboriginal heritage. His objection - that she is not Aboriginal - is made on racial grounds. That is in fact racism - the idea that a person is less or more qualified to do something because of their race alone. I don't wish to argue the point - it may or may not be true, I don't care - I merely point out that that is the basis of his complaint.
I think "professional storyteller" might also be considered a type of "race".
"Modern citizen of a present-day Planet Earth", another still.
--
C.B.
_____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
1c. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
Posted by: "Moggie" wayland@iinet.net.au waylandmoggie
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 2:17 pm ((PST))
By that definition, then those who practice an Egyptian path should be
Egyptian by descent, Norse should have Norse descent, Celtic, Voodoo, etc
etc etc. Would you care to condemn a lot of the list members as well or are
you selective about cultural theft?
BB
Wayland
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@com ...>
wrote:
> Cultural theft is something I find abhorrent.. always have, always will.
Messages in this topic (12)
_____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
1d. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
Posted by: "barbtrad" barbtrad@yahoo.com.au barbtrad
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 7:45 pm ((PST))
No Wayland, those of our way are not selective at all.
We believe ANY cultural theft is wrong. Of course there are grey areas and it really behoves those of the culture the stuff is taken from to express outrage or acceptance. We would not take anything that wasn't from our own heritage and present it as our own, and would bellow long and loud if anyone took our stuff as their own.
Having said that, we are not put here to be the guardians of anyone else's cultural treasures. Yes I know our ideas and values are considered from the stone age in these days of "there are no rules you just do as you like". But I am adamant that outdated or not, we have a right hold such values.
And as so often happens when we, or anyone else stands on their high horse about cultural theft, the ever present leftie lot play the well worn and inappropriate "racist card". As we have seen done here with Leif's post.
Look you want to present a workshop on the Occult practices of the order of Mongolian Duck Pluckers.. Go right ahead! I'll say, if asked, that I don't think its right to do so.. but will leave vengeance to the hordes of Ghengis Khan's descendants:-)
Bill.
Messages in this topic (12)
_____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
1e. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
Posted by: "beah_arboreal" paganhearth@gmail.com beah_arboreal
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 8:47 pm ((PST))
Hi Leif et al
As the world is largely in a diaspora we see much cultural theft going on. I hear everything you are saying and agree however it may only be my part of the world but there is a flip side people may not be aware of.
Every Interfaith gathering I have attended that has a multi faith focus has always included the Indigenous. Opening prayer is always Welcome To Country and usually pays respect to the tribe of that place by name. As it should.
In international arenas like the 'One Humanity, Many Faiths Interfaith Summit for Peace & Harmony in Australia & the Asia-Pacific Region' and the Parliament of World Religions. The interesting part to hear about is that speakers like Aunty Joan Henderson are telling us that they are rebuilding the Dreaming. Consciously collecting what they have left in their traditions and reforming stories from the crumbs. One Aboriginal I worked with a few times tells us stories and that we have permission to retell in ritual. Infact he wants us to. For eg: in Corroberee he taught us to assimilate (my word not his) animals for hunting and wants the skill passed on, and for people to know it and connect to the traditions of this country, these kangaroos and goannas...... this land you walk on type of attitude.
His message was that he is of the stolen generation and for example again he has no word for chakra because of lost teachings but he knows he has them, so he turns to other faiths to find the words for what he has no words for. That we all have some of the answers.
A speaker at the Parliament of World Religions (I can source his name if I had not lent my book) explains it this way. "I am you and you are me, pleased to meet me!" Thats close to verbatim anyway and a philosophy I feel respected in even though I am white.
Sure there is much ground to be made for their understanding in the wider community etc. however I find on a personal level a great need to share is whats happening at the grassroots level I encounter.
NITV is interesting for those wanting snippets of Indigenous teachings and understandings from around the world.
Blessings Always
Belinda
_____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
_____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
2a. PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi
Posted by: "Ken Howard" kenelm@internode.on.net kenelm3927
Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 4:40 pm ((PST))
I'm Ken Howard's wife, and these are MY thoughts, and in does not reflect my husband may think on this issue
I am frankly I'm sick to death of who has / has not the right to retell oral traditions.
Pagans of Australia Wake Up And Smell The Roses!!!!!
What is more important at this point in time: bickering over what amounts to 'ownership' of oral traditions; or what faces Queenslanders??
We are all Pagans who walk different paths. We should be united in our thoughts and prayers for those folk (Pagans and not) in Queensland, especially between Port Douglas and north. These guys are facing sustained wind gusts of +300 km, rainfall in excess of 700mm, storm surge of around 3 to 4 m. The Gods and Goddesses are about to confront people in Queensland with a potentially Cat 6 STC!
Please, unity and prayers to the Queenslanders who today face such an uncertain and terrifying event.
Blessed Be
Silante
Riognach O'Geraghty-Howard (Ovate Journeyman of the Order of Brigid)
*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 1b.
-
Re: cultural appropriation
Posted by: "tiddlywinksoldbean" tiddlywinksoldbean@yahoo.com.au tiddlywinksoldbean
Wed Feb 2, 2011 4:49 pm (PST)
Greetings.
Well I'd not consider myself a guardian of anyone Else's cultural stuff. I'm only interested in my own. What happens to that of others and who makes it happen; Sorry, not really bothered. But yes, I do think it is morally wrong. And I'm not allowed to express that opinion why?
And If I may be so bold as to ask a question. What is it with these people who want their noses in the cultures of others? Don't they have any of their own? Or is it just plain curiosity over-riding ethics?
Sean
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , Roxanne Bodsworth <roxanne_bodsworth@com ...> wrote:
>
> Why am I not surprised that the self-righteous self-appointed guardians of cultural artefacts have jumped on this and condemned Diane Wolkstein telling an Aboriginal story without first acquainting themselves with the facts. If you would like to borrow 'Sun Mother Wakes the World' from your local library then you can read the back section which explains exactly what steps have been taken to ascertain where the story came from and to make contact with those Aboriginal people who might still remain and know something of the story. She is a mythologist of great integrity with intense respect for the cultures whose stories she tells, which includes Australian, Chinese, Sumerian, Russian and countless others. If you don't want to go and see her, then don't but don't spread your misinformed bitterness. And thanks for all those who stood up for her as a storyteller.
>
> Roxanne Bodsworth Eldorado VIC 3746
> (03)57 251806
> www.sunwyse.com.au
>
> "creative writers are valuable allies... for they are apt to know a whole host of things between heaven and earth of which our philosophy has not yet let us dream." Sigmund Freud
>
> ---
> _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> 1a. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
> Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@... carteblanche13
> Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 9:43 am ((PST))
>
> "Cultural theft", Cotty? I wasn't aware that telling a story removed it from its source in any way. In fact, I was under the distinct impression that it did PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE. That's why books exist (you have heard of those, presumably?).
>
> Presumably that is the whole point of why Wolkenstein specialises in storytelling. TO TELL STORIES.
>
> What amuses me perhaps more than this, is that Leif is not an Aboriginal Australian. Ms. Wolkenstein, too, is not an Aboriginal Australian.
>
> The puzzle for me is this:
>
> If (according to Leif's hypothesis) Ms. Wolkenstein (non-Aboriginal) has no business in transmitting an Aboriginal story, how can it be Leif's (a non-Aboriginal) business to object to her doing so?
>
> !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
>
> If it's not her stuff, how is it his stuff? How has any aboriginal been adversely affected by this?
>
>
> What do our indigenous forum members think?
>
> What is more noxious: 1. White urban middle-class neopagans with a racially-defined worldview getting their knickers in a twist over something that isn't any of their business, or
>
> 2. white middle-class storytellers enthusing in your cultural heritage and trying to embrace it through sharing it with the wider community at a prestigious cultural (21st century-cultural, I mean) event?
>
>
> CB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Best regards
> C.B.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@com > wrote:
> > Cultural theft is something I find abhorrent.. always have, always will.
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (12)
> _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> 1b. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
> Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@... carteblanche13
> Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 10:32 am ((PST))
>
> Leif, two questions:
>
> a) What qualifies you to stand up for, or (as you put it) "empower" , aboriginals?
>
>
> b) How is this qualification superior to Ms. Wolkenstein's qualifications for telling stories?
>
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , Leif Njordsson <godhi@> wrote:com
> > I lived on a Queensland Aboriginal reserve for 14 months and saw a lot of empowered people there - not!
>
> Maybe they need more kind people sharing traditional Aboriginal stories to empower them?
>
> Regards
> C.B.
>
>
>
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@com > wrote:
> >
> > Just how the ratbag element can find "racism" in such sentiments beggers belief.
>
> Leif's objection was that Ms. Wolkenstein is not aboriginal, but is telling a story from aboriginal heritage. His objection - that she is not Aboriginal - is made on racial grounds. That is in fact racism - the idea that a person is less or more qualified to do something because of their race alone. I don't wish to argue the point - it may or may not be true, I don't care - I merely point out that that is the basis of his complaint.
>
> I think "professional storyteller" might also be considered a type of "race".
>
> "Modern citizen of a present-day Planet Earth", another still.
>
> --
>
> C.B.
>
>
>
> _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> 1c. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
> Posted by: "Moggie" wayland@... waylandmoggie
> Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 2:17 pm ((PST))
>
> By that definition, then those who practice an Egyptian path should be
> Egyptian by descent, Norse should have Norse descent, Celtic, Voodoo, etc
> etc etc. Would you care to condemn a lot of the list members as well or are
> you selective about cultural theft?
>
> BB
>
> Wayland
>
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@com >
> wrote:
> > Cultural theft is something I find abhorrent.. always have, always will.
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (12)
> _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> 1d. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
> Posted by: "barbtrad" barbtrad@... barbtrad
> Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 7:45 pm ((PST))
>
> No Wayland, those of our way are not selective at all.
> We believe ANY cultural theft is wrong. Of course there are grey areas and it really behoves those of the culture the stuff is taken from to express outrage or acceptance. We would not take anything that wasn't from our own heritage and present it as our own, and would bellow long and loud if anyone took our stuff as their own.
>
> Having said that, we are not put here to be the guardians of anyone else's cultural treasures. Yes I know our ideas and values are considered from the stone age in these days of "there are no rules you just do as you like". But I am adamant that outdated or not, we have a right hold such values.
>
> And as so often happens when we, or anyone else stands on their high horse about cultural theft, the ever present leftie lot play the well worn and inappropriate "racist card". As we have seen done here with Leif's post.
>
> Look you want to present a workshop on the Occult practices of the order of Mongolian Duck Pluckers.. Go right ahead! I'll say, if asked, that I don't think its right to do so.. but will leave vengeance to the hordes of Ghengis Khan's descendants:-)
>
> Bill.
>
>
>
>
> Messages in this topic (12)
> _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> 1e. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
> Posted by: "beah_arboreal" paganhearth@... beah_arboreal
> Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 8:47 pm ((PST))
>
>
>
> Hi Leif et al
>
> As the world is largely in a diaspora we see much cultural theft going on. I hear everything you are saying and agree however it may only be my part of the world but there is a flip side people may not be aware of.
>
> Every Interfaith gathering I have attended that has a multi faith focus has always included the Indigenous. Opening prayer is always Welcome To Country and usually pays respect to the tribe of that place by name. As it should.
>
> In international arenas like the 'One Humanity, Many Faiths Interfaith Summit for Peace & Harmony in Australia & the Asia-Pacific Region' and the Parliament of World Religions. The interesting part to hear about is that speakers like Aunty Joan Henderson are telling us that they are rebuilding the Dreaming. Consciously collecting what they have left in their traditions and reforming stories from the crumbs. One Aboriginal I worked with a few times tells us stories and that we have permission to retell in ritual. Infact he wants us to. For eg: in Corroberee he taught us to assimilate (my word not his) animals for hunting and wants the skill passed on, and for people to know it and connect to the traditions of this country, these kangaroos and goannas...... this land you walk on type of attitude.
>
> His message was that he is of the stolen generation and for example again he has no word for chakra because of lost teachings but he knows he has them, so he turns to other faiths to find the words for what he has no words for. That we all have some of the answers.
>
> A speaker at the Parliament of World Religions (I can source his name if I had not lent my book) explains it this way. "I am you and you are me, pleased to meet me!" Thats close to verbatim anyway and a philosophy I feel respected in even though I am white.
>
> Sure there is much ground to be made for their understanding in the wider community etc. however I find on a personal level a great need to share is whats happening at the grassroots level I encounter.
>
> NITV is interesting for those wanting snippets of Indigenous teachings and understandings from around the world.
>
> Blessings Always
> Belinda
>
>
>
> _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> 2a. PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi
> Posted by: "Ken Howard" kenelm@... kenelm3927
> Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 4:40 pm ((PST))
>
> I'm Ken Howard's wife, and these are MY thoughts, and in does not reflect my husband may think on this issue
>
> I am frankly I'm sick to death of who has / has not the right to retell oral traditions.
>
> Pagans of Australia Wake Up And Smell The Roses!!!!!
>
> What is more important at this point in time: bickering over what amounts to 'ownership' of oral traditions; or what faces Queenslanders??
>
> We are all Pagans who walk different paths. We should be united in our thoughts and prayers for those folk (Pagans and not) in Queensland, especially between Port Douglas and north. These guys are facing sustained wind gusts of +300 km, rainfall in excess of 700mm, storm surge of around 3 to 4 m. The Gods and Goddesses are about to confront people in Queensland with a potentially Cat 6 STC!
>
> Please, unity and prayers to the Queenslanders who today face such an uncertain and terrifying event.
>
> Blessed Be
>
> Silante
>
> Riognach O'Geraghty-Howard (Ovate Journeyman of the Order of Brigid)
>
>
>
> *
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
- 1c.
-
Re: cultural appropriation
Posted by: "ozpagan" ozpagan@ozpagan.com wwwozpagancom
Wed Feb 2, 2011 6:47 pm (PST)
Hi Sean, Roxanne, et al,
It surprises me why this subject should be hitting such raw nerve with people. I'm booking in the good to the Sydney workshop.
@Sean. Re: your question about why anyone would be interested in other peoples' stories/mythologies and might wish to retail them. I'm very interested in myth & ritual forms that have come from a range of cultures very different from t
On 03/02/2011, at 10:49 AM, "tiddlywinksoldbean" <tiddlywinksoldbean@ yahoo.com. > wrote:au
> Greetings.
>
> Well I'd not consider myself a guardian of anyone Else's cultural stuff. I'm only interested in my own. What happens to that of others and who makes it happen; Sorry, not really bothered. But yes, I do think it is morally wrong. And I'm not allowed to express that opinion why?
>
> And If I may be so bold as to ask a question. What is it with these people who want their noses in the cultures of others? Don't they have any of their own? Or is it just plain curiosity over-riding ethics?
>
> Sean
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , Roxanne Bodsworth <roxanne_bodsworth@com ...> wrote:
> >
> > Why am I not surprised that the self-righteous self-appointed guardians of cultural artefacts have jumped on this and condemned Diane Wolkstein telling an Aboriginal story without first acquainting themselves with the facts. If you would like to borrow 'Sun Mother Wakes the World' from your local library then you can read the back section which explains exactly what steps have been taken to ascertain where the story came from and to make contact with those Aboriginal people who might still remain and know something of the story. She is a mythologist of great integrity with intense respect for the cultures whose stories she tells, which includes Australian, Chinese, Sumerian, Russian and countless others. If you don't want to go and see her, then don't but don't spread your misinformed bitterness. And thanks for all those who stood up for her as a storyteller.
> >
> > Roxanne Bodsworth Eldorado VIC 3746
> > (03)57 251806
> > www.sunwyse.com.au
> >
> > "creative writers are valuable allies... for they are apt to know a whole host of things between heaven and earth of which our philosophy has not yet let us dream." Sigmund Freud
> >
> > ---
> > _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > 1a. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
> > Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@... carteblanche13
> > Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 9:43 am ((PST))
> >
> > "Cultural theft", Cotty? I wasn't aware that telling a story removed it from its source in any way. In fact, I was under the distinct impression that it did PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE. That's why books exist (you have heard of those, presumably?).
> >
> > Presumably that is the whole point of why Wolkenstein specialises in storytelling. TO TELL STORIES.
> >
> > What amuses me perhaps more than this, is that Leif is not an Aboriginal Australian. Ms. Wolkenstein, too, is not an Aboriginal Australian.
> >
> > The puzzle for me is this:
> >
> > If (according to Leif's hypothesis) Ms. Wolkenstein (non-Aboriginal) has no business in transmitting an Aboriginal story, how can it be Leif's (a non-Aboriginal) business to object to her doing so?
> >
> > !?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
> >
> > If it's not her stuff, how is it his stuff? How has any aboriginal been adversely affected by this?
> >
> >
> > What do our indigenous forum members think?
> >
> > What is more noxious: 1. White urban middle-class neopagans with a racially-defined worldview getting their knickers in a twist over something that isn't any of their business, or
> >
> > 2. white middle-class storytellers enthusing in your cultural heritage and trying to embrace it through sharing it with the wider community at a prestigious cultural (21st century-cultural, I mean) event?
> >
> >
> > CB
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards
> > C.B.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@com > wrote:
> > > Cultural theft is something I find abhorrent.. always have, always will.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (12)
> > _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > 1b. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
> > Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@... carteblanche13
> > Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 10:32 am ((PST))
> >
> > Leif, two questions:
> >
> > a) What qualifies you to stand up for, or (as you put it) "empower" , aboriginals?
> >
> >
> > b) How is this qualification superior to Ms. Wolkenstein's qualifications for telling stories?
> >
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , Leif Njordsson <godhi@> wrote:com
> > > I lived on a Queensland Aboriginal reserve for 14 months and saw a lot of empowered people there - not!
> >
> > Maybe they need more kind people sharing traditional Aboriginal stories to empower them?
> >
> > Regards
> > C.B.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@com > wrote:
> > >
> > > Just how the ratbag element can find "racism" in such sentiments beggers belief.
> >
> > Leif's objection was that Ms. Wolkenstein is not aboriginal, but is telling a story from aboriginal heritage. His objection - that she is not Aboriginal - is made on racial grounds. That is in fact racism - the idea that a person is less or more qualified to do something because of their race alone. I don't wish to argue the point - it may or may not be true, I don't care - I merely point out that that is the basis of his complaint.
> >
> > I think "professional storyteller" might also be considered a type of "race".
> >
> > "Modern citizen of a present-day Planet Earth", another still.
> >
> > --
> >
> > C.B.
> >
> >
> >
> > _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > 1c. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
> > Posted by: "Moggie" wayland@... waylandmoggie
> > Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 2:17 pm ((PST))
> >
> > By that definition, then those who practice an Egyptian path should be
> > Egyptian by descent, Norse should have Norse descent, Celtic, Voodoo, etc
> > etc etc. Would you care to condemn a lot of the list members as well or are
> > you selective about cultural theft?
> >
> > BB
> >
> > Wayland
> >
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@com >
> > wrote:
> > > Cultural theft is something I find abhorrent.. always have, always will.
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (12)
> > _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > 1d. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
> > Posted by: "barbtrad" barbtrad@... barbtrad
> > Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 7:45 pm ((PST))
> >
> > No Wayland, those of our way are not selective at all.
> > We believe ANY cultural theft is wrong. Of course there are grey areas and it really behoves those of the culture the stuff is taken from to express outrage or acceptance. We would not take anything that wasn't from our own heritage and present it as our own, and would bellow long and loud if anyone took our stuff as their own.
> >
> > Having said that, we are not put here to be the guardians of anyone else's cultural treasures. Yes I know our ideas and values are considered from the stone age in these days of "there are no rules you just do as you like". But I am adamant that outdated or not, we have a right hold such values.
> >
> > And as so often happens when we, or anyone else stands on their high horse about cultural theft, the ever present leftie lot play the well worn and inappropriate "racist card". As we have seen done here with Leif's post.
> >
> > Look you want to present a workshop on the Occult practices of the order of Mongolian Duck Pluckers.. Go right ahead! I'll say, if asked, that I don't think its right to do so.. but will leave vengeance to the hordes of Ghengis Khan's descendants:-)
> >
> > Bill.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (12)
> > _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > 1e. Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist
> > Posted by: "beah_arboreal" paganhearth@... beah_arboreal
> > Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 8:47 pm ((PST))
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Leif et al
> >
> > As the world is largely in a diaspora we see much cultural theft going on. I hear everything you are saying and agree however it may only be my part of the world but there is a flip side people may not be aware of.
> >
> > Every Interfaith gathering I have attended that has a multi faith focus has always included the Indigenous. Opening prayer is always Welcome To Country and usually pays respect to the tribe of that place by name. As it should.
> >
> > In international arenas like the 'One Humanity, Many Faiths Interfaith Summit for Peace & Harmony in Australia & the Asia-Pacific Region' and the Parliament of World Religions. The interesting part to hear about is that speakers like Aunty Joan Henderson are telling us that they are rebuilding the Dreaming. Consciously collecting what they have left in their traditions and reforming stories from the crumbs. One Aboriginal I worked with a few times tells us stories and that we have permission to retell in ritual. Infact he wants us to. For eg: in Corroberee he taught us to assimilate (my word not his) animals for hunting and wants the skill passed on, and for people to know it and connect to the traditions of this country, these kangaroos and goannas...... this land you walk on type of attitude.
> >
> > His message was that he is of the stolen generation and for example again he has no word for chakra because of lost teachings but he knows he has them, so he turns to other faiths to find the words for what he has no words for. That we all have some of the answers.
> >
> > A speaker at the Parliament of World Religions (I can source his name if I had not lent my book) explains it this way. "I am you and you are me, pleased to meet me!" Thats close to verbatim anyway and a philosophy I feel respected in even though I am white.
> >
> > Sure there is much ground to be made for their understanding in the wider community etc. however I find on a personal level a great need to share is whats happening at the grassroots level I encounter.
> >
> > NITV is interesting for those wanting snippets of Indigenous teachings and understandings from around the world.
> >
> > Blessings Always
> > Belinda
> >
> >
> >
> > _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > _____________________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
> > 2a. PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi
> > Posted by: "Ken Howard" kenelm@... kenelm3927
> > Date: Tue Feb 1, 2011 4:40 pm ((PST))
> >
> > I'm Ken Howard's wife, and these are MY thoughts, and in does not reflect my husband may think on this issue
> >
> > I am frankly I'm sick to death of who has / has not the right to retell oral traditions.
> >
> > Pagans of Australia Wake Up And Smell The Roses!!!!!
> >
> > What is more important at this point in time: bickering over what amounts to 'ownership' of oral traditions; or what faces Queenslanders??
> >
> > We are all Pagans who walk different paths. We should be united in our thoughts and prayers for those folk (Pagans and not) in Queensland, especially between Port Douglas and north. These guys are facing sustained wind gusts of +300 km, rainfall in excess of 700mm, storm surge of around 3 to 4 m. The Gods and Goddesses are about to confront people in Queensland with a potentially Cat 6 STC!
> >
> > Please, unity and prayers to the Queenslanders who today face such an uncertain and terrifying event.
> >
> > Blessed Be
> >
> > Silante
> >
> > Riognach O'Geraghty-Howard (Ovate Journeyman of the Order of Brigid)
> >
> >
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 1d.
-
Re: cultural appropriation
Posted by: "ozpagan" ozpagan@ozpagan.com wwwozpagancom
Wed Feb 2, 2011 7:12 pm (PST)
Oops, bloody sensitive keyboard...so to continue on...
On 03/02/2011, at 12:47 PM, ozpagan <ozpagan@ozpagan.com > wrote:
> Hi Sean, Roxanne, et al,
>
> It surprises me why this subject should be hitting such raw nerve with people. I'm booking in the good to the Sydney workshop.
>
> @Sean. Re: your question about why anyone would be interested in other peoples' stories/mythologies and might wish to retail them. I'm very interested in myth & ritual forms that have come from a range of cultures very different from ...
>
>
...traditions & cultures. I don't think I'm alone when I say one of the attractions to other peoples' stories/myths is a deeply felt conviction that I may have lived in some previous life in those cultures.
That's all, except to say please be confronting and respectful in your communication with one another.
Vinum sabbati,
Tim (moderator)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- 2a.
-
Re: PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi
Posted by: "aradia_weaver" krista.rados@gmail.com aradia_weaver
Wed Feb 2, 2011 9:43 pm (PST)
I understand that what is happening right now in QLD is extremely important. However I also feel that there is no point in trying to decide which topics of discussion take precedence over others. It would take a cold-hearted person to not empathise with those suffering right now. But really, we should put this in perspective.
When my son was born, I was afraid I couldn't possibly love him as much as I did my first born daughter. Could I possibly have enough love for them both? The answer was a resounding 'yes'. Similarly, discussing important topics on an egroup in no way reduces the level of sympathy and feeling towards those in QLD. We each have an enormous capacity to feel and express strong emotion about all kinds of concerns.
I think we also tend to forget that - as completely devastating as experiencing Yasi must be - there are uncountable atrocities, deaths, moments of anguish and other personal hells happening right around the globe - right this very second. To stop discussing those things which are also important to us is pointless and in my opinion, indirectly suggests that our ability to love is finite.
I welcome such debate about cultural theft, rights etc. I can't say I'm very impressed with some of the harshness of these communications, but I maintain a strong belief that it is much better to get these things out in the open rather than not challenge one another. How else can we grow?
Much love to all those in FN QLD who are having to confront the challenge of rebuilding their homes and lives. Much love to all who are suffering, no matter what form that suffering takes. Much love to this community who, despite our similarities and differences, choose to engage in discussion that can only serve in the end to bring to light those things we may have missed if we chose to remain in the solitude of our own thoughts and beliefs.
Aradia xx
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , Lizzy Rose <celebpsychic@com ...> wrote:
>
> Well said
>
> 100% agree
>
> The reason many don't speak publicly on egroups any more, is due to such
> bickering that seems to enter nearly every single discussion/debate.
>
> I send my love strength support and thoughts to those in QLD right now, for
> that is far more important in my opinion also.
>
> May the goddess keep you all safe
>
> Blessed Be
>
> Lady Elizabeth Rose )O(
>
> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Ken Howard <kenelm@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I'm Ken Howard's wife, and these are MY thoughts, and in does not reflect
> > my husband may think on this issue
> >
> > I am frankly I'm sick to death of who has / has not the right to retell
> > oral traditions.
> >
> > Pagans of Australia Wake Up And Smell The Roses!!!!!
> >
> > What is more important at this point in time: bickering over what amounts
> > to 'ownership' of oral traditions; or what faces Queenslanders??
> >
> > We are all Pagans who walk different paths. We should be united in our
> > thoughts and prayers for those folk (Pagans and not) in Queensland,
> > especially between Port Douglas and north. These guys are facing sustained
> > wind gusts of +300 km, rainfall in excess of 700mm, storm surge of around 3
> > to 4 m. The Gods and Goddesses are about to confront people in Queensland
> > with a potentially Cat 6 STC!
> >
> > Please, unity and prayers to the Queenslanders who today face such an
> > uncertain and terrifying event.
> >
> > Blessed Be
> >
> > Silante
> >
> > Riognach O'Geraghty-Howard (Ovate Journeyman of the Order of Brigid)
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *Lizzy Rose *
> AUSTRALIA'S CELEBRITY PSYCHIC
>
> *Ph 039 323 1230
> Mobile 0424 666 277*
>
> *AVAILABILITY*
> Readings are available
> only on Saturday & Sundays with prior arrangement.
>
> **Please feel free to leave a voice message on any of the contact numbers
> listed.
> However please note; the phones are not attended for lengthy periods of
> time, so the quickest form of contact is via email or mobile sms.
>
> Appointments available in 2010 are held
> In East Keilor
> http://www.lizzyrose.com.au <http://lizzyrose.com.au/ >
> http://www.facebook.com/lizzy. rose
> http://www.myspace.com/mediumlizzyr ose
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
- 2b.
-
Re: PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi
Posted by: "cottytosmaid" cottytosmaid@yahoo.com.au cottytosmaid
Wed Feb 2, 2011 10:34 pm (PST)
Pretty good post Aradia!
Its all about perspective isn't it? And lists are a lot about opinions. And you are spot on about expressing opinions not taking away anything from compassion.
Again keeping perspective, as bad as the disasters have been the loss of life has been unexpectedly low. The floods in Brazil took hundreds of lives. What has that to do with the price of eggs? Well nothing probably.
This whole cultural treasures thing: Sean has summed it up pretty much for me. Not my culture being in question, so as the lady in the bank add says "Not my problem"! Tim does make a point though, past lives believed to have relevance with a culture is probably a good reason for an interest. Conceded! But exploitation?? Perhaps not.
Again perspectives, perspectives. Culturally some may believe having their nose in cultures other than their own is quite acceptable. Some cultures believe breaking wind loudly after a meal is a compliment to the host. Others see it as the height of rudeness. Me? As long as you leave mine alone. then break wind to your hearts content!
Cotty
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "aradia_weaver" <krista.rados@com ...> wrote:
>
> I understand that what is happening right now in QLD is extremely important. However I also feel that there is no point in trying to decide which topics of discussion take precedence over others. It would take a cold-hearted person to not empathise with those suffering right now. But really, we should put this in perspective.
>
> When my son was born, I was afraid I couldn't possibly love him as much as I did my first born daughter. Could I possibly have enough love for them both? The answer was a resounding 'yes'. Similarly, discussing important topics on an egroup in no way reduces the level of sympathy and feeling towards those in QLD. We each have an enormous capacity to feel and express strong emotion about all kinds of concerns.
>
> I think we also tend to forget that - as completely devastating as experiencing Yasi must be - there are uncountable atrocities, deaths, moments of anguish and other personal hells happening right around the globe - right this very second. To stop discussing those things which are also important to us is pointless and in my opinion, indirectly suggests that our ability to love is finite.
>
> I welcome such debate about cultural theft, rights etc. I can't say I'm very impressed with some of the harshness of these communications, but I maintain a strong belief that it is much better to get these things out in the open rather than not challenge one another. How else can we grow?
>
> Much love to all those in FN QLD who are having to confront the challenge of rebuilding their homes and lives. Much love to all who are suffering, no matter what form that suffering takes. Much love to this community who, despite our similarities and differences, choose to engage in discussion that can only serve in the end to bring to light those things we may have missed if we chose to remain in the solitude of our own thoughts and beliefs.
>
> Aradia xx
>
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , Lizzy Rose <celebpsychic@com > wrote:
> >
> > Well said
> >
> > 100% agree
> >
> > The reason many don't speak publicly on egroups any more, is due to such
> > bickering that seems to enter nearly every single discussion/debate.
> >
> > I send my love strength support and thoughts to those in QLD right now, for
> > that is far more important in my opinion also.
> >
> > May the goddess keep you all safe
> >
> > Blessed Be
> >
> > Lady Elizabeth Rose )O(
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Ken Howard <kenelm@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm Ken Howard's wife, and these are MY thoughts, and in does not reflect
> > > my husband may think on this issue
> > >
> > > I am frankly I'm sick to death of who has / has not the right to retell
> > > oral traditions.
> > >
> > > Pagans of Australia Wake Up And Smell The Roses!!!!!
> > >
> > > What is more important at this point in time: bickering over what amounts
> > > to 'ownership' of oral traditions; or what faces Queenslanders??
> > >
> > > We are all Pagans who walk different paths. We should be united in our
> > > thoughts and prayers for those folk (Pagans and not) in Queensland,
> > > especially between Port Douglas and north. These guys are facing sustained
> > > wind gusts of +300 km, rainfall in excess of 700mm, storm surge of around 3
> > > to 4 m. The Gods and Goddesses are about to confront people in Queensland
> > > with a potentially Cat 6 STC!
> > >
> > > Please, unity and prayers to the Queenslanders who today face such an
> > > uncertain and terrifying event.
> > >
> > > Blessed Be
> > >
> > > Silante
> > >
> > > Riognach O'Geraghty-Howard (Ovate Journeyman of the Order of Brigid)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Lizzy Rose *
> > AUSTRALIA'S CELEBRITY PSYCHIC
> >
> > *Ph 039 323 1230
> > Mobile 0424 666 277*
> >
> > *AVAILABILITY*
> > Readings are available
> > only on Saturday & Sundays with prior arrangement.
> >
> > **Please feel free to leave a voice message on any of the contact numbers
> > listed.
> > However please note; the phones are not attended for lengthy periods of
> > time, so the quickest form of contact is via email or mobile sms.
> >
> > Appointments available in 2010 are held
> > In East Keilor
> > http://www.lizzyrose.com.au <http://lizzyrose.com.au/ >
> > http://www.facebook.com/lizzy. rose
> > http://www.myspace.com/mediumlizzyr ose
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
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___________________________________________________________
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tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
to these principles & to notify owner.
info@witchesworkshop.com
___________________________________________________________
Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html
Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/135651219624
WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
http://www.witchesworkshop.com
___________________________________________________________
The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
to these principles & to notify owner.
info@witchesworkshop.com
___________________________________________________________
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