miercuri, 2 februarie 2011

[WitchesWorkshop] Digest Number 4642

Messages In This Digest (10 Messages)

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1a.

Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist

Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au   carteblanche13

Tue Feb 1, 2011 9:43 am (PST)



"Cultural theft", Cotty? I wasn't aware that telling a story removed it from its source in any way. In fact, I was under the distinct impression that it did PRECISELY THE OPPOSITE. That's why books exist (you have heard of those, presumably?).

Presumably that is the whole point of why Wolkenstein specialises in storytelling. TO TELL STORIES.

What amuses me perhaps more than this, is that Leif is not an Aboriginal Australian. Ms. Wolkenstein, too, is not an Aboriginal Australian.

The puzzle for me is this:

If (according to Leif's hypothesis) Ms. Wolkenstein (non-Aboriginal) has no business in transmitting an Aboriginal story, how can it be Leif's (a non-Aboriginal) business to object to her doing so?

!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

If it's not her stuff, how is it his stuff? How has any aboriginal been adversely affected by this?

What do our indigenous forum members think?

What is more noxious: 1. White urban middle-class neopagans with a racially-defined worldview getting their knickers in a twist over something that isn't any of their business, or

2. white middle-class storytellers enthusing in your cultural heritage and trying to embrace it through sharing it with the wider community at a prestigious cultural (21st century-cultural, I mean) event?

CB

Best regards
C.B.

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@...> wrote:
> Cultural theft is something I find abhorrent.. always have, always will.

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1b.

Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist

Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au   carteblanche13

Tue Feb 1, 2011 10:32 am (PST)



Leif, two questions:

a) What qualifies you to stand up for, or (as you put it) "empower" , aboriginals?

b) How is this qualification superior to Ms. Wolkenstein's qualifications for telling stories?

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Leif Njordsson <godhi@...> wrote:
> I lived on a Queensland Aboriginal reserve for 14 months and saw a lot of empowered people there - not!

Maybe they need more kind people sharing traditional Aboriginal stories to empower them?

Regards
C.B.

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@...> wrote:
>
> Just how the ratbag element can find "racism" in such sentiments beggers belief.

Leif's objection was that Ms. Wolkenstein is not aboriginal, but is telling a story from aboriginal heritage. His objection - that she is not Aboriginal - is made on racial grounds. That is in fact racism - the idea that a person is less or more qualified to do something because of their race alone. I don't wish to argue the point - it may or may not be true, I don't care - I merely point out that that is the basis of his complaint.

I think "professional storyteller" might also be considered a type of "race".

"Modern citizen of a present-day Planet Earth", another still.

--

C.B.

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1c.

Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist

Posted by: "Moggie" wayland@iinet.net.au   waylandmoggie

Tue Feb 1, 2011 2:17 pm (PST)



By that definition, then those who practice an Egyptian path should be
Egyptian by descent, Norse should have Norse descent, Celtic, Voodoo, etc
etc etc. Would you care to condemn a lot of the list members as well or are
you selective about cultural theft?

BB

Wayland


--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@...>
wrote:
> Cultural theft is something I find abhorrent.. always have, always will.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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1d.

Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist

Posted by: "barbtrad" barbtrad@yahoo.com.au   barbtrad

Tue Feb 1, 2011 7:45 pm (PST)



No Wayland, those of our way are not selective at all.
We believe ANY cultural theft is wrong. Of course there are grey areas and it really behoves those of the culture the stuff is taken from to express outrage or acceptance. We would not take anything that wasn't from our own heritage and present it as our own, and would bellow long and loud if anyone took our stuff as their own.

Having said that, we are not put here to be the guardians of anyone else's cultural treasures. Yes I know our ideas and values are considered from the stone age in these days of "there are no rules you just do as you like". But I am adamant that outdated or not, we have a right hold such values.

And as so often happens when we, or anyone else stands on their high horse about cultural theft, the ever present leftie lot play the well worn and inappropriate "racist card". As we have seen done here with Leif's post.

Look you want to present a workshop on the Occult practices of the order of Mongolian Duck Pluckers.. Go right ahead! I'll say, if asked, that I don't think its right to do so.. but will leave vengeance to the hordes of Ghengis Khan's descendants:-)

Bill.

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "Moggie" <wayland@...> wrote:
>
> By that definition, then those who practice an Egyptian path should be
> Egyptian by descent, Norse should have Norse descent, Celtic, Voodoo, etc
> etc etc. Would you care to condemn a lot of the list members as well or are
> you selective about cultural theft?
>
> BB
>
> Wayland
>
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "cottytosmaid" <cottytosmaid@>
> wrote:
> > Cultural theft is something I find abhorrent.. always have, always will.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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1e.

Re: Diane Wolkstein, mythologist

Posted by: "beah_arboreal" paganhearth@gmail.com   beah_arboreal

Tue Feb 1, 2011 8:47 pm (PST)





Hi Leif et al

As the world is largely in a diaspora we see much cultural theft going on. I hear everything you are saying and agree however it may only be my part of the world but there is a flip side people may not be aware of.

Every Interfaith gathering I have attended that has a multi faith focus has always included the Indigenous. Opening prayer is always Welcome To Country and usually pays respect to the tribe of that place by name. As it should.

In international arenas like the 'One Humanity, Many Faiths Interfaith Summit for Peace & Harmony in Australia & the Asia-Pacific Region' and the Parliament of World Religions. The interesting part to hear about is that speakers like Aunty Joan Henderson are telling us that they are rebuilding the Dreaming. Consciously collecting what they have left in their traditions and reforming stories from the crumbs. One Aboriginal I worked with a few times tells us stories and that we have permission to retell in ritual. Infact he wants us to. For eg: in Corroberee he taught us to assimilate (my word not his) animals for hunting and wants the skill passed on, and for people to know it and connect to the traditions of this country, these kangaroos and goannas...... this land you walk on type of attitude.

His message was that he is of the stolen generation and for example again he has no word for chakra because of lost teachings but he knows he has them, so he turns to other faiths to find the words for what he has no words for. That we all have some of the answers.

A speaker at the Parliament of World Religions (I can source his name if I had not lent my book) explains it this way. "I am you and you are me, pleased to meet me!" Thats close to verbatim anyway and a philosophy I feel respected in even though I am white.

Sure there is much ground to be made for their understanding in the wider community etc. however I find on a personal level a great need to share is whats happening at the grassroots level I encounter.

NITV is interesting for those wanting snippets of Indigenous teachings and understandings from around the world.

Blessings Always
Belinda

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2a.

PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi

Posted by: "Ken Howard" kenelm@internode.on.net   kenelm3927

Tue Feb 1, 2011 4:40 pm (PST)



I'm Ken Howard's wife, and these are MY thoughts, and in does not reflect my husband may think on this issue

I am frankly I'm sick to death of who has / has not the right to retell oral traditions.

Pagans of Australia Wake Up And Smell The Roses!!!!!

What is more important at this point in time: bickering over what amounts to 'ownership' of oral traditions; or what faces Queenslanders??

We are all Pagans who walk different paths. We should be united in our thoughts and prayers for those folk (Pagans and not) in Queensland, especially between Port Douglas and north. These guys are facing sustained wind gusts of +300 km, rainfall in excess of 700mm, storm surge of around 3 to 4 m. The Gods and Goddesses are about to confront people in Queensland with a potentially Cat 6 STC!

Please, unity and prayers to the Queenslanders who today face such an uncertain and terrifying event.

Blessed Be

Silante

Riognach O'Geraghty-Howard (Ovate Journeyman of the Order of Brigid)
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2b.

Re: PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi

Posted by: "Lizzy Rose" celebpsychic@gmail.com   melbournesmedium

Tue Feb 1, 2011 5:52 pm (PST)



Well said

100% agree

The reason many don't speak publicly on egroups any more, is due to such
bickering that seems to enter nearly every single discussion/debate.

I send my love strength support and thoughts to those in QLD right now, for
that is far more important in my opinion also.

May the goddess keep you all safe

Blessed Be

Lady Elizabeth Rose )O(

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Ken Howard <kenelm@internode.on.net> wrote:

>
>
> I'm Ken Howard's wife, and these are MY thoughts, and in does not reflect
> my husband may think on this issue
>
> I am frankly I'm sick to death of who has / has not the right to retell
> oral traditions.
>
> Pagans of Australia Wake Up And Smell The Roses!!!!!
>
> What is more important at this point in time: bickering over what amounts
> to 'ownership' of oral traditions; or what faces Queenslanders??
>
> We are all Pagans who walk different paths. We should be united in our
> thoughts and prayers for those folk (Pagans and not) in Queensland,
> especially between Port Douglas and north. These guys are facing sustained
> wind gusts of +300 km, rainfall in excess of 700mm, storm surge of around 3
> to 4 m. The Gods and Goddesses are about to confront people in Queensland
> with a potentially Cat 6 STC!
>
> Please, unity and prayers to the Queenslanders who today face such an
> uncertain and terrifying event.
>
> Blessed Be
>
> Silante
>
> Riognach O'Geraghty-Howard (Ovate Journeyman of the Order of Brigid)
>
>

--
*Lizzy Rose *
AUSTRALIA'S CELEBRITY PSYCHIC

*Ph 039 323 1230
Mobile 0424 666 277*

*AVAILABILITY*
Readings are available
only on Saturday & Sundays with prior arrangement.

**Please feel free to leave a voice message on any of the contact numbers
listed.
However please note; the phones are not attended for lengthy periods of
time, so the quickest form of contact is via email or mobile sms.

Appointments available in 2010 are held
In East Keilor
http://www.lizzyrose.com.au <http://lizzyrose.com.au/>
http://www.facebook.com/lizzy.rose
http://www.myspace.com/mediumlizzyrose

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Messages in this topic (3)
2c.

Re: PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi

Posted by: "Tish" deborahs23@optusnet.com.au   morticia_its_me

Wed Feb 2, 2011 2:14 am (PST)



Ditto..

prayers to each and everyone in Qld..

Batten down those hatches friends..

We are here praying/chanting for you..

Oh do be well

Tish




-------Original Message-------

From: Lizzy Rose
Date: 2/02/2011 12:53:04 PM
To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WitchesWorkshop] PLEASE put the bickering aside... STC Yasi

Well said

100% agree

The reason many don't speak publicly on egroups any more, is due to such
bickering that seems to enter nearly every single discussion/debate.

I send my love strength support and thoughts to those in QLD right now, for
that is far more important in my opinion also.

May the goddess keep you all safe

Blessed Be

Lady Elizabeth Rose )O(

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Ken Howard <kenelm@internode.on.net> wrote:

>
>
> I'm Ken Howard's wife, and these are MY thoughts, and in does not reflect
> my husband may think on this issue
>
> I am frankly I'm sick to death of who has / has not the right to retell
> oral traditions.
>
> Pagans of Australia Wake Up And Smell The Roses!!!!!
>
> What is more important at this point in time: bickering over what amounts
> to 'ownership' of oral traditions; or what faces Queenslanders??
>
> We are all Pagans who walk different paths. We should be united in our
> thoughts and prayers for those folk (Pagans and not) in Queensland,
> especially between Port Douglas and north. These guys are facing sustained
> wind gusts of +300 km, rainfall in excess of 700mm, storm surge of around
3
> to 4 m. The Gods and Goddesses are about to confront people in Queensland
> with a potentially Cat 6 STC!
>
> Please, unity and prayers to the Queenslanders who today face such an
> uncertain and terrifying event.
>
> Blessed Be
>
> Silante
>
> Riognach O'Geraghty-Howard (Ovate Journeyman of the Order of Brigid)
>
>



--
*Lizzy Rose *
AUSTRALIA'S CELEBRITY PSYCHIC

*Ph 039 323 1230
Mobile 0424 666 277*

*AVAILABILITY*
Readings are available
only on Saturday & Sundays with prior arrangement.

**Please feel free to leave a voice message on any of the contact numbers
listed.
However please note; the phones are not attended for lengthy periods of
time, so the quickest form of contact is via email or mobile sms.

Appointments available in 2010 are held
In East Keilor
http://www.lizzyrose.com.au <http://lizzyrose.com.au/>
http://www.facebook.com/lizzy.rose
http://www.myspace.com/mediumlizzyrose


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________

Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html

Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/135651219624

WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
http://www.witchesworkshop.com
__________________________________________________________

The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
to these principles & to notify owner.

info@witchesworkshop.com
__________________________________________________________

Yahoo! Groups Links




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Messages in this topic (3)
3a.

Rest in Peace, Brother : Kenneth Grant ( 1924 e.v. -  2011 e.v. )

Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au   carteblanche13

Tue Feb 1, 2011 10:03 pm (PST)



Kenneth Grant, the last living person to have studied and practised magick personally with Aleister Crowley; colleague and long-standing friend of sorcerer/artist Austin Osman Spare; author, publisher and editor of Crowley's and Spare's works during the period after their deaths when they were otherwise unavailable; magician, mystic beyond compare, teacher, lifelong beacon and innovator of Thelema, poet, artist and much-loved gentleman, has died on January 15th, 2011 e.v., aged 87.

This is an event of immense significance for me personally, but also for many Thelemites, traditional witches, occultists, thinkers, artists, musicians, mystics, sorcerors and magicians around the world. The contribution of Kenneth Grant's life's work is truly immense, and doesn't really compare with anything else by any other author. Of particular note is his progressive and incredibly insightful synthesis and assimilation of an extraordinarily - perhaps unprecedentedly - broad and complex body of gnosis, presented through an intensely personal, subjectivised lens. The tenor which lies between the lines of his work is that of Advaita, or non-duality, underpinning the essential mysteries of the Initiatory Traditions of West and East, including Thelema and many other things. Though often oblique, abstruse and at times seemingly impenetrable, his books are justifiably famous (and I can testify to this personally) as being more than simply books on, or about, magic - they are strongly magical objects in their own right, often having a direct experiential initiatory effects upon the suitably prepared reader (whether that reader consciously feels "ready" for it or not, or even willing, I might add!).

With his loss passes one of the most highly respected, experienced, knowledgeable and influential senior figures in the occult community: a giant of 20th and 21st century magick.

The official notice below appears on the website of Starfire Publications:

http://www.starfirepublishing.co.uk/main_frames_page.htm

" Kenneth Grant died on 15th January 2011 after a period of illness. Our condolences go first and foremost to his family, whose privacy is something which we all wish to respect at this difficult time.

Kenneth Grant had an extraordinary life, and his work has a remarkable depth and breadth of magical and mystical insight. In particular, his monumental series of Typhonian Trilogies is creative, innovatory and inspiring, extending across thirty years from the publication of the opening volume The Magical Revival in 1972, to the appearance of the final volume The Ninth Arch in 2002. This is a substantial body of work, constituting a solid foundation for further development, widening and deepening in the years to come; his work will continue.

Michael Staley,

1st February 2011."

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3b.

Re: Rest in Peace, Brother : Kenneth Grant ( 1924 e.v. -  2011 e.v.

Posted by: "Graham" grahfurn@yahoo.com.au   grahfurn

Wed Feb 2, 2011 4:43 am (PST)



Many thanks for posting this news CB - long may he be remembered...
BB Graham.

--- On Wed, 2/2/11, carteblanche13 <carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

From: carteblanche13 <carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au>
Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Rest in Peace, Brother : Kenneth Grant ( 1924 e.v. - 2011 e.v. )
To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
Received: Wednesday, 2 February, 2011, 5:03 PM

 

Kenneth Grant, the last living person to have studied and practised magick personally with Aleister Crowley; colleague and long-standing friend of sorcerer/artist Austin Osman Spare; author, publisher and editor of Crowley's and Spare's works during the period after their deaths when they were otherwise unavailable; magician, mystic beyond compare, teacher, lifelong beacon and innovator of Thelema, poet, artist and much-loved gentleman, has died on January 15th, 2011 e.v., aged 87.

This is an event of immense significance for me personally, but also for many Thelemites, traditional witches, occultists, thinkers, artists, musicians, mystics, sorcerors and magicians around the world. The contribution of Kenneth Grant's life's work is truly immense, and doesn't really compare with anything else by any other author. Of particular note is his progressive and incredibly insightful synthesis and assimilation of an extraordinarily - perhaps unprecedentedly - broad and complex body of gnosis, presented through an intensely personal, subjectivised lens. The tenor which lies between the lines of his work is that of Advaita, or non-duality, underpinning the essential mysteries of the Initiatory Traditions of West and East, including Thelema and many other things. Though often oblique, abstruse and at times seemingly impenetrable, his books are justifiably famous (and I can testify to this personally) as being more than simply books on, or
about, magic - they are strongly magical objects in their own right, often having a direct experiential initiatory effects upon the suitably prepared reader (whether that reader consciously feels "ready" for it or not, or even willing, I might add!).

With his loss passes one of the most highly respected, experienced, knowledgeable and influential senior figures in the occult community: a giant of 20th and 21st century magick.

The official notice below appears on the website of Starfire Publications:

http://www.starfirepublishing.co.uk/main_frames_page.htm

" Kenneth Grant died on 15th January 2011 after a period of illness. Our condolences go first and foremost to his family, whose privacy is something which we all wish to respect at this difficult time.

Kenneth Grant had an extraordinary life, and his work has a remarkable depth and breadth of magical and mystical insight. In particular, his monumental series of Typhonian Trilogies is creative, innovatory and inspiring, extending across thirty years from the publication of the opening volume The Magical Revival in 1972, to the appearance of the final volume The Ninth Arch in 2002. This is a substantial body of work, constituting a solid foundation for further development, widening and deepening in the years to come; his work will continue.

Michael Staley,

1st February 2011."

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________

Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html

Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/135651219624

WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
http://www.witchesworkshop.com
___________________________________________________________

The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our  
communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
to these principles & to notify owner.

info@witchesworkshop.com
___________________________________________________________

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