Messages In This Digest (14 Messages)
- 1a.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: Elizabeth Brickman
- 1b.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: gaia_d
- 1c.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: Elizabeth Brickman
- 1d.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: gaia_d
- 1e.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: Blackbird
- 1f.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: gaia_d
- 1g.
- Re: Agreeing to Disagree. From: Blackbird
- 1h.
- Re: Agreeing to Disagree. From: gaia_d
- 1i.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: Elizabeth Brickman
- 1j.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: Elizabeth Brickman
- 1k.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: Jude DaShiell
- 1l.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: gaia_d
- 1m.
- Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca From: Blackbird
- 2.
- CDW- PS of Pents. From: Blackbird
Messages
- 1a.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "Elizabeth Brickman" radicalgarden@yahoo.com radicalgarden
Mon May 2, 2011 10:22 am (PDT)
i think its not very thoughtfull to berate those who are not out of the broom closet for not telling thier parents they are witches. We do not worship the Christian god who would smite us for not becoming a martyr. doing no harm can sometimes mean silence. if not telling those around you about your private practice keeps you safe and keeps your family whole than what good does it do to change that? since when does telling people you are or aren't a witch determine your powers? this is counter intuitive to our very history.
------Original Message------
From: gaia_dianne <gaia_dianne@yahoo.com >
To: <Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. >com
Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011 8:07:31 PM GMT-0000
Subject: [Witch_Essentials] On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
On Introducing (Concerned) Family/ Friends
to Wicca:
(c) 2008 By Gaia_d@yahoo <mailto:Gaia_d@yahoo> ; please don't reproduce
without permission.
1. Why It's Important to NOT LIE to Parents:
One of a witch's most important powers is her ability to speak
something into existence. Magick works in part by having a witch
first imagine, then put energy and confidence into what s/he has
imagined, such that it manifests -- first on the Astral,and then on
the physical plane.
This CANNOT happen if that witch has corrupted her integrity -- if
s/he consistently lies or misrepresents the truth, it wears away at
her ability to speak/ call reality into existence. Do you
understand?
As a witch AND as a human being -- your most essential, basic, and
important power is to speak the TRUTH; and your most essential,
basic, and important possession is your INTEGRITY. That is why many
people have DIED rather than speak falsely, or misrepresent the
truth. That is why many people have made such an issue of
maintaining their "good name" -- their integrity. Because to a
great extent, If you lose that, you lose yourSELF.
Read the story of "A Man For All Seasons," it is one of the best
stories ever written to illustrate this very point.
My point here is that if you lie or hide or misrepresent the truth
to your Mom, you are destroying your INTEGRITY, and destroying your
ability to "speak reality into existence," because your word no
longer holds magickal, ethical or spiritual *power* and AUTHORITY.
Consider too how your Parents would feel if / when they learn the truth
-
- as they most likely will, sooner or later. What will happen to
your relationship if you destroy their ability to trust you?
2. Teaching Under-Age People:
Honorable, authentic Wicca teachers will NOT even agree to
TEACH an under-age student, without parental consent.
Consider: Have you tried explaining to your Parents what Wicca is, what
you see in
it, why it's so important to you? Have you tried *negotiating* with
them, to come to some sort of mutually agreeable understanding, which
respects BOTH of you, and BOTH of your wishes?
For example, you could agree to attend their church and read the Bible,
if they will agree to let you read your Wicca books, and have a small,
relatively benign altar (Or whatever other mutually agreeable
understanding you could both come to)?
Many Wiccan Traditions *require* their Dedicants / apprentices to study
and become well acquainted with at least one other religion --
i certainly require it of my students, so they are capable of comparing
and contrasting Wicca with another Path.
In this way, you would also be learning the important lessons of
personal discipline, negotiation, working with someone....
But even if the worst is true, and your Parents simply cannot, will not
be budged -- We're only talking about what, a couple of years before
you're out and on your own, able to make your own decisions? Can you not
find it in your heart to take maybe a couple of years, to respect the
wishes of the Parents who sacrificed to give you life, nurture and care
for you (as best she could) for almost two decades?
Even if you must postpone your study and practice of Wicca per se, You
could take this time to study Christianity (as above); to practice and
become proficient at your basic, general skills (like
centering, grounding, cleansing, shielding, and visualizations); as well
as studying such things as general religion, psychology, history,
anthropology, mythology, etc -- ALL of which would be a
good basic foundation for a well-prepared Wiccan.
And then, when you get out on your own, you could begin pursuing the
Craft in any way that you wish -- with a heart, mind and spirit of
integrity and honor, knowing that you behaved in the most mature,
honorable way possible; knowing that you did *not* betray your Parents'
trust, or your own responsibilities, or your own honor; and with the
added bonus of knowing that you have developed the kind of personal
discipline and integrity that is required of a powerful Wiccan.
Finally, i'm going to include an article i wrote some time ago, offering
other suggestions for dealing with concerned family and friends -- i
hope it helps!
Here are some suggestions for dealing with family and friends, and
their concerns, with your new interest in Wicca- Paganism. These
are the result of years of challenges and i can tell you from
personal experience, that they DO work, with even the most difficult
of situations.
1. Understand that their reaction is actually, at heart, concern and
love for you, and worry about your welfare.
If you keep that uppermost in your mind, you'll be able to respond
with love, compassion and patience, rather than anger, hurt and
offense.
2. See (and show them!) the article, "A Christian Speaks on Wicca
and Witchcraft" in the Files section of this group.
3. See (and show them!) Scott Cunningham's little booklet, "The
Truth About Witchcraft Today" - an excellent introduction for family
& friends. Leave both of these resources around the house, so your
family can pick them up when and as they are ready for the
information -- which may be some time yet. Be patient.
4. Tell them about the Wiccan Rede, our basic ethic:
"An ye harm NONE, do as ye will". Explain what it means to you,
and how it is similar to the "Golden Rule".
5. Give them TIME to adjust, and to see that your practice of Wicca
actually makes you a better person -- and then make sure that it
DOES <smile>.
Remember (and demonstrate!) that the practice of Wicca develops self-
discipline, self-knowledge, self-possession; maturity, wisdom,
integrity.
6. Go easy on the scary stuff -- like pentagrams, black clothing,
tatoos, etc -- and anything that's likely to "set them off" or scare
them. You can be a powerful witch, and have a small, powerful
altar without looking like something out of "Buffy" or "Charmed".
7. Be patient, kind, loving and respectful -- even (especially!)
when others are not. It is no great accomplishment to be kind and
respectful to those who are kind to you; the challenge is to be so
when others are *not*.
Remember that love is a tremendously motivating force that often
gets confused and jumbled up in other (negative) emotions, like
fear, frustration, jealousy, etc.
When others respond with negative emotions like fear, jealousy,
etc., take a few moments to "center and ground"; then "translate"
their fear, jealousy, or other negative emotions, into the LOVE that
is at the heart of what they really mean, and respond to THAT.
(Try to) See them as the Goddess sees them. Try to see them as they
might yet be.
Remember: there is a *reason* why you are together in this life; and
you have an opportunity to make it a positive experience for both /
all of you --or at the very least, for yourSELF -- with work,
discipline, and effort.
Deal with this challenge in a way that you can be proud of.
And remember that it may take years before you reap the fruit of the
seeds of patience, understanding, compassion and love that you plant
now -- but its sweetness will be more than worth the effort.
Blessings and good luck --
~Gaia
- 1b.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "gaia_d" Gaia_D@yahoo.com gaia_d
Mon May 2, 2011 10:54 am (PDT)
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "Elizabeth Brickman"com
<radicalgarden@...> wrote:
>
> i think its not very thoughtfull to berate those who are not out of
the broom closet for not telling thier parents they are witches. We do
not worship the Christian god who would smite us for not becoming a
martyr. doing no harm can sometimes mean silence. if not telling those
around you about your private practice keeps you safe and keeps your
family whole than what good does it do to change that? since when does
telling people you are or aren't a witch determine your powers? this is
counter intuitive to our very history.
GAIA:
Hello and Merry Meet, Elizabeth --
I'm afraid you seriously misunderstood.
I absolutely did NOT "berate" anyone for making the (adult and informed)
decision/ choice to "stay in the Broom Closet" -- Nor would i ever do
such a thing, since for several decades as a Wiccan HIgh Priestess,
i've been well aware of the many challenges that all Wiccans face and
have to keep in mind when making such choices/ decisions -- such as the
safety of their family, children, household, and livelihood.
You didn't understand, and you are confusing two very *different*
issues:
a) A CHILD LYING to their parents/ guardians, who have the absolute
LEGAL RIGHT to determine what if any religious training or education
they receive;
AND -
b) An adult making the adult, informed decision to deliberately protect
THEIR family and household by keeping silent about their Pagan
activities -- which is *their* legal right.
What i did do was counsel UNDER_AGE CHILDREN to not lie to their
Parents, for several reasons, including ethical and legal. In fact,
fyi, Parents or Legal Guardians have the absolute ethical and LEGAL
RIGHT to determine what if any religious training or education their
children receive -- which is completely legitimate, since they are also
held LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE for those children. Furthermore, anybody who
"interferes" with that *legal right* can be brought up on very serious
legal charges (recommend you read the "Witchvox" article, here:
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_ va.html?a= usxx&c=basics& id=12642
<http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_ >va.html?a= usxx&c=basics& id=12642
ELIZABETH-:
if not telling those around you about your private practice keeps you
safe and keeps your family you safe and keeps your family whole than
what good does it do to change that"
GAIA:
I have to ask, just how does (a CHILD) LYING to their family "keep it
safe and whole"???
Again, you misunderstood and confused very different issues.
ELIZABETH-:
since when does telling people you are or aren't a witch determine your
powers? this is counter intuitive to our very history.
GAIA:
I have three things to say on this comment:
a) Whose history are you referring to here -- because Wicca has only
been in existence about 70 years;
b) Just what does "history" say about CHILDREN LYING to their parents;
c) If you don't understand how lying weakens one's integrity and
therefore their ability to (successfully, productively) practice *any*
spiritual Path, i don't suppose there's much more i can say on the
matter.
Ethics matter, Elizabeth. Honesty matters. Integrity matters.
Finally, let me say once more, for clarity:
There is a *difference* between a child making decisions and choices
that they are not even (mentally, intellectually, emotionally, or
spiritually) equipped to make, and *adults* making inteligent,
well-thought out, informed decisions about themselves and their
families.
~Gaia
_____________________ _________ _________ _________
>
> ------Original Message------
> From: gaia_dianne gaia_dianne@...
> To: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011 8:07:31 PM GMT-0000
> Subject: [Witch_Essentials] On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
>
>
> On Introducing (Concerned) Family/ Friends
>
> to Wicca:
>
> (c) 2008 By Gaia_d@yahoo <mailto:Gaia_d@yahoo ; please don't reproduce
> without permission.
>
>
>
> 1. Why It's Important to NOT LIE to Parents:
>
> One of a witch's most important powers is her ability to speak
> something into existence. Magick works in part by having a witch
> first imagine, then put energy and confidence into what s/he has
> imagined, such that it manifests -- first on the Astral,and then on
> the physical plane.
>
> This CANNOT happen if that witch has corrupted her integrity -- if
> s/he consistently lies or misrepresents the truth, it wears away at
> her ability to speak/ call reality into existence. Do you
> understand?
>
> As a witch AND as a human being -- your most essential, basic, and
> important power is to speak the TRUTH; and your most essential,
> basic, and important possession is your INTEGRITY. That is why many
> people have DIED rather than speak falsely, or misrepresent the
> truth. That is why many people have made such an issue of
> maintaining their "good name" -- their integrity. Because to a
> great extent, If you lose that, you lose yourSELF.
>
> Read the story of "A Man For All Seasons," it is one of the best
> stories ever written to illustrate this very point.
>
> My point here is that if you lie or hide or misrepresent the truth
> to your Mom, you are destroying your INTEGRITY, and destroying your
> ability to "speak reality into existence," because your word no
> longer holds magickal, ethical or spiritual *power* and AUTHORITY.
>
> Consider too how your Parents would feel if / when they learn the
truth
> -
> - as they most likely will, sooner or later. What will happen to
> your relationship if you destroy their ability to trust you?
>
>
>
> 2. Teaching Under-Age People:
>
> Honorable, authentic Wicca teachers will NOT even agree to
> TEACH an under-age student, without parental consent.
>
>
>
> Consider: Have you tried explaining to your Parents what Wicca is,
what
> you see in
> it, why it's so important to you? Have you tried *negotiating* with
> them, to come to some sort of mutually agreeable understanding, which
> respects BOTH of you, and BOTH of your wishes?
>
> For example, you could agree to attend their church and read the
Bible,
> if they will agree to let you read your Wicca books, and have a small,
> relatively benign altar (Or whatever other mutually agreeable
> understanding you could both come to)?
>
> Many Wiccan Traditions *require* their Dedicants / apprentices to
study
> and become well acquainted with at least one other religion --
> i certainly require it of my students, so they are capable of
comparing
> and contrasting Wicca with another Path.
>
> In this way, you would also be learning the important lessons of
> personal discipline, negotiation, working with someone....
>
>
> But even if the worst is true, and your Parents simply cannot, will
not
> be budged -- We're only talking about what, a couple of years before
> you're out and on your own, able to make your own decisions? Can you
not
> find it in your heart to take maybe a couple of years, to respect the
> wishes of the Parents who sacrificed to give you life, nurture and
care
> for you (as best she could) for almost two decades?
>
> Even if you must postpone your study and practice of Wicca per se, You
> could take this time to study Christianity (as above); to practice and
> become proficient at your basic, general skills (like
> centering, grounding, cleansing, shielding, and visualizations); as
well
> as studying such things as general religion, psychology, history,
> anthropology, mythology, etc -- ALL of which would be a
> good basic foundation for a well-prepared Wiccan.
>
>
> And then, when you get out on your own, you could begin pursuing the
> Craft in any way that you wish -- with a heart, mind and spirit of
> integrity and honor, knowing that you behaved in the most mature,
> honorable way possible; knowing that you did *not* betray your
Parents'
> trust, or your own responsibilities, or your own honor; and with the
> added bonus of knowing that you have developed the kind of personal
> discipline and integrity that is required of a powerful Wiccan.
>
>
> Finally, i'm going to include an article i wrote some time ago,
offering
> other suggestions for dealing with concerned family and friends -- i
> hope it helps!
>
>
> Here are some suggestions for dealing with family and friends, and
> their concerns, with your new interest in Wicca- Paganism. These
> are the result of years of challenges and i can tell you from
> personal experience, that they DO work, with even the most difficult
> of situations.
>
> 1. Understand that their reaction is actually, at heart, concern and
> love for you, and worry about your welfare.
> If you keep that uppermost in your mind, you'll be able to respond
> with love, compassion and patience, rather than anger, hurt and
> offense.
>
> 2. See (and show them!) the article, "A Christian Speaks on Wicca
> and Witchcraft" in the Files section of this group.
>
> 3. See (and show them!) Scott Cunningham's little booklet, "The
> Truth About Witchcraft Today" - an excellent introduction for family
> & friends. Leave both of these resources around the house, so your
> family can pick them up when and as they are ready for the
> information -- which may be some time yet. Be patient.
>
> 4. Tell them about the Wiccan Rede, our basic ethic:
> "An ye harm NONE, do as ye will". Explain what it means to you,
> and how it is similar to the "Golden Rule".
>
> 5. Give them TIME to adjust, and to see that your practice of Wicca
> actually makes you a better person -- and then make sure that it
> DOES <smile>.
> Remember (and demonstrate!) that the practice of Wicca develops self-
> discipline, self-knowledge, self-possession; maturity, wisdom,
> integrity.
>
> 6. Go easy on the scary stuff -- like pentagrams, black clothing,
> tatoos, etc -- and anything that's likely to "set them off" or scare
> them. You can be a powerful witch, and have a small, powerful
> altar without looking like something out of "Buffy" or "Charmed".
>
> 7. Be patient, kind, loving and respectful -- even (especially!)
> when others are not. It is no great accomplishment to be kind and
> respectful to those who are kind to you; the challenge is to be so
> when others are *not*.
> Remember that love is a tremendously motivating force that often
> gets confused and jumbled up in other (negative) emotions, like
> fear, frustration, jealousy, etc.
>
> When others respond with negative emotions like fear, jealousy,
> etc., take a few moments to "center and ground"; then "translate"
> their fear, jealousy, or other negative emotions, into the LOVE that
> is at the heart of what they really mean, and respond to THAT.
>
> (Try to) See them as the Goddess sees them. Try to see them as they
> might yet be.
>
> Remember: there is a *reason* why you are together in this life; and
> you have an opportunity to make it a positive experience for both /
> all of you --or at the very least, for yourSELF -- with work,
> discipline, and effort.
> Deal with this challenge in a way that you can be proud of.
> And remember that it may take years before you reap the fruit of the
> seeds of patience, understanding, compassion and love that you plant
> now -- but its sweetness will be more than worth the effort.
>
>
>
> Blessings and good luck --
> ~Gaia
>
- 1c.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "Elizabeth Brickman" radicalgarden@yahoo.com radicalgarden
Mon May 2, 2011 11:41 am (PDT)
the title of your article does not indicate that it is intended for those who are under age. it is not until you are further down into the document that the distinction is specified. i am well aware of the legal implications of teaching someone elses children...i'm not refering to children at all. i'm refering to the begining of the document, perhaps it needs clarification that the entire document is in fact aimed at teenagers. Furthermore. ..morality is a highly subjective subject. Laws of magic differ greatly from place to place and person to person. perhaps its true for you that you must always speak truthfully or suffer the magical repercussions. ..but i have never heard this before.
------Original Message------
From: gaia_d <Gaia_D@yahoo.com >
To: <Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. >com
Date: Monday, May 2, 2011 5:53:46 PM GMT-0000
Subject: [Witch_Essentials] Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "Elizabeth Brickman"com
<radicalgarden@...> wrote:
>
> i think its not very thoughtfull to berate those who are not out of
the broom closet for not telling thier parents they are witches. We do
not worship the Christian god who would smite us for not becoming a
martyr. doing no harm can sometimes mean silence. if not telling those
around you about your private practice keeps you safe and keeps your
family whole than what good does it do to change that? since when does
telling people you are or aren't a witch determine your powers? this is
counter intuitive to our very history.
GAIA:
Hello and Merry Meet, Elizabeth --
I'm afraid you seriously misunderstood.
I absolutely did NOT "berate" anyone for making the (adult and informed)
decision/ choice to "stay in the Broom Closet" -- Nor would i ever do
such a thing, since for several decades as a Wiccan HIgh Priestess,
i've been well aware of the many challenges that all Wiccans face and
have to keep in mind when making such choices/ decisions -- such as the
safety of their family, children, household, and livelihood.
You didn't understand, and you are confusing two very *different*
issues:
a) A CHILD LYING to their parents/ guardians, who have the absolute
LEGAL RIGHT to determine what if any religious training or education
they receive;
AND -
b) An adult making the adult, informed decision to deliberately protect
THEIR family and household by keeping silent about their Pagan
activities -- which is *their* legal right.
What i did do was counsel UNDER_AGE CHILDREN to not lie to their
Parents, for several reasons, including ethical and legal. In fact,
fyi, Parents or Legal Guardians have the absolute ethical and LEGAL
RIGHT to determine what if any religious training or education their
children receive -- which is completely legitimate, since they are also
held LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE for those children. Furthermore, anybody who
"interferes" with that *legal right* can be brought up on very serious
legal charges (recommend you read the "Witchvox" article, here:
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_ va.html?a= usxx&c=basics& id=12642
<http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_ >va.html?a= usxx&c=basics& id=12642
ELIZABETH-:
if not telling those around you about your private practice keeps you
safe and keeps your family you safe and keeps your family whole than
what good does it do to change that"
GAIA:
I have to ask, just how does (a CHILD) LYING to their family "keep it
safe and whole"???
Again, you misunderstood and confused very different issues.
ELIZABETH-:
since when does telling people you are or aren't a witch determine your
powers? this is counter intuitive to our very history.
GAIA:
I have three things to say on this comment:
a) Whose history are you referring to here -- because Wicca has only
been in existence about 70 years;
b) Just what does "history" say about CHILDREN LYING to their parents;
c) If you don't understand how lying weakens one's integrity and
therefore their ability to (successfully, productively) practice *any*
spiritual Path, i don't suppose there's much more i can say on the
matter.
Ethics matter, Elizabeth. Honesty matters. Integrity matters.
Finally, let me say once more, for clarity:
There is a *difference* between a child making decisions and choices
that they are not even (mentally, intellectually, emotionally, or
spiritually) equipped to make, and *adults* making inteligent,
well-thought out, informed decisions about themselves and their
families.
~Gaia
_____________________ _________ _________ _________
>
> ------Original Message------
> From: gaia_dianne gaia_dianne@...
> To: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011 8:07:31 PM GMT-0000
> Subject: [Witch_Essentials] On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
>
>
> On Introducing (Concerned) Family/ Friends
>
> to Wicca:
>
> (c) 2008 By Gaia_d@yahoo <mailto:Gaia_d@yahoo ; please don't reproduce
> without permission.
>
>
>
> 1. Why It's Important to NOT LIE to Parents:
>
> One of a witch's most important powers is her ability to speak
> something into existence. Magick works in part by having a witch
> first imagine, then put energy and confidence into what s/he has
> imagined, such that it manifests -- first on the Astral,and then on
> the physical plane.
>
> This CANNOT happen if that witch has corrupted her integrity -- if
> s/he consistently lies or misrepresents the truth, it wears away at
> her ability to speak/ call reality into existence. Do you
> understand?
>
> As a witch AND as a human being -- your most essential, basic, and
> important power is to speak the TRUTH; and your most essential,
> basic, and important possession is your INTEGRITY. That is why many
> people have DIED rather than speak falsely, or misrepresent the
> truth. That is why many people have made such an issue of
> maintaining their "good name" -- their integrity. Because to a
> great extent, If you lose that, you lose yourSELF.
>
> Read the story of "A Man For All Seasons," it is one of the best
> stories ever written to illustrate this very point.
>
> My point here is that if you lie or hide or misrepresent the truth
> to your Mom, you are destroying your INTEGRITY, and destroying your
> ability to "speak reality into existence," because your word no
> longer holds magickal, ethical or spiritual *power* and AUTHORITY.
>
> Consider too how your Parents would feel if / when they learn the
truth
> -
> - as they most likely will, sooner or later. What will happen to
> your relationship if you destroy their ability to trust you?
>
>
>
> 2. Teaching Under-Age People:
>
> Honorable, authentic Wicca teachers will NOT even agree to
> TEACH an under-age student, without parental consent.
>
>
>
> Consider: Have you tried explaining to your Parents what Wicca is,
what
> you see in
> it, why it's so important to you? Have you tried *negotiating* with
> them, to come to some sort of mutually agreeable understanding, which
> respects BOTH of you, and BOTH of your wishes?
>
> For example, you could agree to attend their church and read the
Bible,
> if they will agree to let you read your Wicca books, and have a small,
> relatively benign altar (Or whatever other mutually agreeable
> understanding you could both come to)?
>
> Many Wiccan Traditions *require* their Dedicants / apprentices to
study
> and become well acquainted with at least one other religion --
> i certainly require it of my students, so they are capable of
comparing
> and contrasting Wicca with another Path.
>
> In this way, you would also be learning the important lessons of
> personal discipline, negotiation, working with someone....
>
>
> But even if the worst is true, and your Parents simply cannot, will
not
> be budged -- We're only talking about what, a couple of years before
> you're out and on your own, able to make your own decisions? Can you
not
> find it in your heart to take maybe a couple of years, to respect the
> wishes of the Parents who sacrificed to give you life, nurture and
care
> for you (as best she could) for almost two decades?
>
> Even if you must postpone your study and practice of Wicca per se, You
> could take this time to study Christianity (as above); to practice and
> become proficient at your basic, general skills (like
> centering, grounding, cleansing, shielding, and visualizations); as
well
> as studying such things as general religion, psychology, history,
> anthropology, mythology, etc -- ALL of which would be a
> good basic foundation for a well-prepared Wiccan.
>
>
> And then, when you get out on your own, you could begin pursuing the
> Craft in any way that you wish -- with a heart, mind and spirit of
> integrity and honor, knowing that you behaved in the most mature,
> honorable way possible; knowing that you did *not* betray your
Parents'
> trust, or your own responsibilities, or your own honor; and with the
> added bonus of knowing that you have developed the kind of personal
> discipline and integrity that is required of a powerful Wiccan.
>
>
> Finally, i'm going to include an article i wrote some time ago,
offering
> other suggestions for dealing with concerned family and friends -- i
> hope it helps!
>
>
> Here are some suggestions for dealing with family and friends, and
> their concerns, with your new interest in Wicca- Paganism. These
> are the result of years of challenges and i can tell you from
> personal experience, that they DO work, with even the most difficult
> of situations.
>
> 1. Understand that their reaction is actually, at heart, concern and
> love for you, and worry about your welfare.
> If you keep that uppermost in your mind, you'll be able to respond
> with love, compassion and patience, rather than anger, hurt and
> offense.
>
> 2. See (and show them!) the article, "A Christian Speaks on Wicca
> and Witchcraft" in the Files section of this group.
>
> 3. See (and show them!) Scott Cunningham's little booklet, "The
> Truth About Witchcraft Today" - an excellent introduction for family
> & friends. Leave both of these resources around the house, so your
> family can pick them up when and as they are ready for the
> information -- which may be some time yet. Be patient.
>
> 4. Tell them about the Wiccan Rede, our basic ethic:
> "An ye harm NONE, do as ye will". Explain what it means to you,
> and how it is similar to the "Golden Rule".
>
> 5. Give them TIME to adjust, and to see that your practice of Wicca
> actually makes you a better person -- and then make sure that it
> DOES <smile>.
> Remember (and demonstrate!) that the practice of Wicca develops self-
> discipline, self-knowledge, self-possession; maturity, wisdom,
> integrity.
>
> 6. Go easy on the scary stuff -- like pentagrams, black clothing,
> tatoos, etc -- and anything that's likely to "set them off" or scare
> them. You can be a powerful witch, and have a small, powerful
> altar without looking like something out of "Buffy" or "Charmed".
>
> 7. Be patient, kind, loving and respectful -- even (especially!)
> when others are not. It is no great accomplishment to be kind and
> respectful to those who are kind to you; the challenge is to be so
> when others are *not*.
> Remember that love is a tremendously motivating force that often
> gets confused and jumbled up in other (negative) emotions, like
> fear, frustration, jealousy, etc.
>
> When others respond with negative emotions like fear, jealousy,
> etc., take a few moments to "center and ground"; then "translate"
> their fear, jealousy, or other negative emotions, into the LOVE that
> is at the heart of what they really mean, and respond to THAT.
>
> (Try to) See them as the Goddess sees them. Try to see them as they
> might yet be.
>
> Remember: there is a *reason* why you are together in this life; and
> you have an opportunity to make it a positive experience for both /
> all of you --or at the very least, for yourSELF -- with work,
> discipline, and effort.
> Deal with this challenge in a way that you can be proud of.
> And remember that it may take years before you reap the fruit of the
> seeds of patience, understanding, compassion and love that you plant
> now -- but its sweetness will be more than worth the effort.
>
>
>
> Blessings and good luck --
> ~Gaia
>
- 1d.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "gaia_d" Gaia_D@yahoo.com gaia_d
Mon May 2, 2011 11:52 am (PDT)
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "Elizabeth Brickman"com
<radicalgarden@...> wrote:
>
> the title of your article does not indicate that it is intended for
those who are under age. it is not until you are further down into the
document that the distinction is specified. i am well aware of the legal
implications of teaching someone elses children...i'm not refering to
children at all. i'm refering to the begining of the document, perhaps
it needs clarification that the entire document is in fact aimed at
teenagers. Furthermore...morality is a highly subjective subject. Laws
of magic differ greatly from place to place and person to person.
perhaps its true for you that you must always speak truthfully or suffer
the magical repercussions...but i have never heard this before.
>
GAIA:
I came back to this Group after posting my reply with the intention to
apologize before you read my reply -- I felt that i probably could have
said what (i felt) needed to be said, a bit more gently and
respectfully, so i am sorry if it seemed i was not as respectful as i
should have been.
I thought the topic was obvious since the Title reads, "> > 1. Why It's
Important to NOT LIE to Parents:" -- but perhaps i could have made it
clearer to begin with, that i was specifically addressing the article to
and about (under-aged) children.
And yes, while different magickal and spiritual systems do have
different ethics, i think most if not all of them would agree that a
*child* should never be encouraged to lie to Parents.
At any rate, i will edit the article so it's clear from the beginning
that i'm speaking about children and not adults -- and why. Thank you
for your observations and contributions in that regard; in the long run,
i think they will help make the article much more appropriate and
effective.
Blessings -
~Gaia
_____________________ _________ _________ _________ ____
-
> From: gaia_d Gaia_D@...
> To: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Monday, May 2, 2011 5:53:46 PM GMT-0000
> Subject: [Witch_Essentials] Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to
Wicca
>
>
>
> --- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "Elizabeth Brickman"com
> radicalgarden@ wrote:
> >
> > i think its not very thoughtfull to berate those who are not out of
> the broom closet for not telling thier parents they are witches. We do
> not worship the Christian god who would smite us for not becoming a
> martyr. doing no harm can sometimes mean silence. if not telling those
> around you about your private practice keeps you safe and keeps your
> family whole than what good does it do to change that? since when does
> telling people you are or aren't a witch determine your powers? this
is
> counter intuitive to our very history.
>
>
>
> GAIA:
>
> Hello and Merry Meet, Elizabeth --
>
> I'm afraid you seriously misunderstood.
>
> I absolutely did NOT "berate" anyone for making the (adult and
informed)
> decision/ choice to "stay in the Broom Closet" -- Nor would i ever do
> such a thing, since for several decades as a Wiccan HIgh Priestess,
> i've been well aware of the many challenges that all Wiccans face and
> have to keep in mind when making such choices/ decisions -- such as
the
> safety of their family, children, household, and livelihood.
>
> You didn't understand, and you are confusing two very *different*
> issues:
>
> a) A CHILD LYING to their parents/ guardians, who have the absolute
> LEGAL RIGHT to determine what if any religious training or education
> they receive;
>
> AND -
>
> b) An adult making the adult, informed decision to deliberately
protect
> THEIR family and household by keeping silent about their Pagan
> activities -- which is *their* legal right.
>
>
>
> What i did do was counsel UNDER_AGE CHILDREN to not lie to their
> Parents, for several reasons, including ethical and legal. In fact,
> fyi, Parents or Legal Guardians have the absolute ethical and LEGAL
> RIGHT to determine what if any religious training or education their
> children receive -- which is completely legitimate, since they are
also
> held LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE for those children. Furthermore, anybody who
> "interferes" with that *legal right* can be brought up on very serious
> legal charges (recommend you read the "Witchvox" article, here:
>
> http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_ va.html?a= usxx&c=basics& id=12642
> <http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_ >va.html?a= usxx&c=basics& id=12642
>
>
>
> ELIZABETH-:
>
> if not telling those around you about your private practice keeps you
> safe and keeps your family you safe and keeps your family whole than
> what good does it do to change that"
>
>
>
> GAIA:
>
> I have to ask, just how does (a CHILD) LYING to their family "keep it
> safe and whole"???
>
> Again, you misunderstood and confused very different issues.
>
>
>
> ELIZABETH-:
>
> since when does telling people you are or aren't a witch determine
your
> powers? this is counter intuitive to our very history.
>
>
>
> GAIA:
>
> I have three things to say on this comment:
>
> a) Whose history are you referring to here -- because Wicca has only
> been in existence about 70 years;
>
> b) Just what does "history" say about CHILDREN LYING to their parents;
>
> c) If you don't understand how lying weakens one's integrity and
> therefore their ability to (successfully, productively) practice *any*
> spiritual Path, i don't suppose there's much more i can say on the
> matter.
>
> Ethics matter, Elizabeth. Honesty matters. Integrity matters.
>
>
>
> Finally, let me say once more, for clarity:
>
> There is a *difference* between a child making decisions and choices
> that they are not even (mentally, intellectually, emotionally, or
> spiritually) equipped to make, and *adults* making inteligent,
> well-thought out, informed decisions about themselves and their
> families.
>
>
>
> ~Gaia
>
> _____________________ _________ _________ _________
>
>
> >
> > ------Original Message------
> > From: gaia_dianne gaia_dianne@
> > To: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Sunday, May 1, 2011 8:07:31 PM GMT-0000
> > Subject: [Witch_Essentials] On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
> >
> >
> > On Introducing (Concerned) Family/ Friends
> >
> > to Wicca:
> >
> > (c) 2008 By Gaia_d@yahoo <mailto:Gaia_d@yahoo ; please don't
reproduce
> > without permission.
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. Why It's Important to NOT LIE to Parents:
> >
> > One of a witch's most important powers is her ability to speak
> > something into existence. Magick works in part by having a witch
> > first imagine, then put energy and confidence into what s/he has
> > imagined, such that it manifests -- first on the Astral,and then on
> > the physical plane.
> >
> > This CANNOT happen if that witch has corrupted her integrity -- if
> > s/he consistently lies or misrepresents the truth, it wears away at
> > her ability to speak/ call reality into existence. Do you
> > understand?
> >
> > As a witch AND as a human being -- your most essential, basic, and
> > important power is to speak the TRUTH; and your most essential,
> > basic, and important possession is your INTEGRITY. That is why many
> > people have DIED rather than speak falsely, or misrepresent the
> > truth. That is why many people have made such an issue of
> > maintaining their "good name" -- their integrity. Because to a
> > great extent, If you lose that, you lose yourSELF.
> >
> > Read the story of "A Man For All Seasons," it is one of the best
> > stories ever written to illustrate this very point.
> >
> > My point here is that if you lie or hide or misrepresent the truth
> > to your Mom, you are destroying your INTEGRITY, and destroying your
> > ability to "speak reality into existence," because your word no
> > longer holds magickal, ethical or spiritual *power* and AUTHORITY.
> >
> > Consider too how your Parents would feel if / when they learn the
> truth
> > -
> > - as they most likely will, sooner or later. What will happen to
> > your relationship if you destroy their ability to trust you?
> >
> >
> >
> > 2. Teaching Under-Age People:
> >
> > Honorable, authentic Wicca teachers will NOT even agree to
> > TEACH an under-age student, without parental consent.
> >
> >
> >
> > Consider: Have you tried explaining to your Parents what Wicca is,
> what
> > you see in
> > it, why it's so important to you? Have you tried *negotiating* with
> > them, to come to some sort of mutually agreeable understanding,
which
> > respects BOTH of you, and BOTH of your wishes?
> >
> > For example, you could agree to attend their church and read the
> Bible,
> > if they will agree to let you read your Wicca books, and have a
small,
> > relatively benign altar (Or whatever other mutually agreeable
> > understanding you could both come to)?
> >
> > Many Wiccan Traditions *require* their Dedicants / apprentices to
> study
> > and become well acquainted with at least one other religion --
> > i certainly require it of my students, so they are capable of
> comparing
> > and contrasting Wicca with another Path.
> >
> > In this way, you would also be learning the important lessons of
> > personal discipline, negotiation, working with someone....
> >
> >
> > But even if the worst is true, and your Parents simply cannot, will
> not
> > be budged -- We're only talking about what, a couple of years before
> > you're out and on your own, able to make your own decisions? Can you
> not
> > find it in your heart to take maybe a couple of years, to respect
the
> > wishes of the Parents who sacrificed to give you life, nurture and
> care
> > for you (as best she could) for almost two decades?
> >
> > Even if you must postpone your study and practice of Wicca per se,
You
> > could take this time to study Christianity (as above); to practice
and
> > become proficient at your basic, general skills (like
> > centering, grounding, cleansing, shielding, and visualizations); as
> well
> > as studying such things as general religion, psychology, history,
> > anthropology, mythology, etc -- ALL of which would be a
> > good basic foundation for a well-prepared Wiccan.
> >
> >
> > And then, when you get out on your own, you could begin pursuing the
> > Craft in any way that you wish -- with a heart, mind and spirit of
> > integrity and honor, knowing that you behaved in the most mature,
> > honorable way possible; knowing that you did *not* betray your
> Parents'
> > trust, or your own responsibilities, or your own honor; and with the
> > added bonus of knowing that you have developed the kind of personal
> > discipline and integrity that is required of a powerful Wiccan.
> >
> >
> > Finally, i'm going to include an article i wrote some time ago,
> offering
> > other suggestions for dealing with concerned family and friends -- i
> > hope it helps!
> >
> >
> > Here are some suggestions for dealing with family and friends, and
> > their concerns, with your new interest in Wicca- Paganism. These
> > are the result of years of challenges and i can tell you from
> > personal experience, that they DO work, with even the most difficult
> > of situations.
> >
> > 1. Understand that their reaction is actually, at heart, concern and
> > love for you, and worry about your welfare.
> > If you keep that uppermost in your mind, you'll be able to respond
> > with love, compassion and patience, rather than anger, hurt and
> > offense.
> >
> > 2. See (and show them!) the article, "A Christian Speaks on Wicca
> > and Witchcraft" in the Files section of this group.
> >
> > 3. See (and show them!) Scott Cunningham's little booklet, "The
> > Truth About Witchcraft Today" - an excellent introduction for family
> > & friends. Leave both of these resources around the house, so your
> > family can pick them up when and as they are ready for the
> > information -- which may be some time yet. Be patient.
> >
> > 4. Tell them about the Wiccan Rede, our basic ethic:
> > "An ye harm NONE, do as ye will". Explain what it means to you,
> > and how it is similar to the "Golden Rule".
> >
> > 5. Give them TIME to adjust, and to see that your practice of Wicca
> > actually makes you a better person -- and then make sure that it
> > DOES <smile>.
> > Remember (and demonstrate!) that the practice of Wicca develops
self-
> > discipline, self-knowledge, self-possession; maturity, wisdom,
> > integrity.
> >
> > 6. Go easy on the scary stuff -- like pentagrams, black clothing,
> > tatoos, etc -- and anything that's likely to "set them off" or scare
> > them. You can be a powerful witch, and have a small, powerful
> > altar without looking like something out of "Buffy" or "Charmed".
> >
> > 7. Be patient, kind, loving and respectful -- even (especially!)
> > when others are not. It is no great accomplishment to be kind and
> > respectful to those who are kind to you; the challenge is to be so
> > when others are *not*.
> > Remember that love is a tremendously motivating force that often
> > gets confused and jumbled up in other (negative) emotions, like
> > fear, frustration, jealousy, etc.
> >
> > When others respond with negative emotions like fear, jealousy,
> > etc., take a few moments to "center and ground"; then "translate"
> > their fear, jealousy, or other negative emotions, into the LOVE that
> > is at the heart of what they really mean, and respond to THAT.
> >
> > (Try to) See them as the Goddess sees them. Try to see them as they
> > might yet be.
> >
> > Remember: there is a *reason* why you are together in this life; and
> > you have an opportunity to make it a positive experience for both /
> > all of you --or at the very least, for yourSELF -- with work,
> > discipline, and effort.
> > Deal with this challenge in a way that you can be proud of.
> > And remember that it may take years before you reap the fruit of the
> > seeds of patience, understanding, compassion and love that you plant
> > now -- but its sweetness will be more than worth the effort.
> >
> >
> >
> > Blessings and good luck --
> > ~Gaia
> >
>
- 1e.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Mon May 2, 2011 1:18 pm (PDT)
GAIA's NOTE:
While BlackBird and i usually agree on most issues, we also sometimes (respectfully) disagree, and this is one of those times.
I hope this won't confuse or upset anyone, but i think BB will agree with me when i say that i think it's important for *all* points of view to be heard and listened to respectfully --
even if ultimately we still disagree; and to know that we can learn to do that respectfully --
Hence, BB posted this, and i am approving it -- I hope it will serve as a good example of how we can (when necessary) agree to disagree, agreeably!
(And again, Elizabeth, i do apologize if it seemed that i was not doing that, to begin with! By way of explanation (not excuse, but explanation) -- Today is my birthday, and i am terribly missing my darling daughter who passed on to the Summerland just a few short weeks ago, and who always used to call on my BD; please forgive if i took my grief out on you!)
Blessings to All -
~Gaia
* * * * *
If I may,
I think I will have to take a contrary point of view to Gaia on this
one.
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "gaia_d" <Gaia_D@...> wrote:com
I absolutely did NOT "berate" anyone for making the (adult and informed)
decision/ choice to "stay in the Broom Closet" -- Nor would i ever do
such a thing, since for several decades as a Wiccan High Priestess,
I've been well aware of the many challenges that all Wiccans face
and have to keep in mind when making such choices/ decisions -- such as
the safety of their family, children, household, and livelihood.
You didn't understand, and you are confusing two very *different*
issues:
a) A CHILD LYING to their parents/ guardians, who have the absolute
LEGAL RIGHT to determine what if any religious training or education
they receive;
AND -
b) An adult making the adult, informed decision to deliberately protect
THEIR family and household by keeping silent about their Pagan
activities -- which is *their* legal right.
What i did do was counsel UNDER_AGE CHILDREN to not lie to their
Parents, for several reasons, including ethical and legal. In fact, fyi,
Parents or Legal Guardians have the absolute ethical and LEGAL RIGHT to
determine what if any religious training or education their children
receive -- which is completely legitimate, since they are also held
LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE for those children. Furthermore, anybody who
"interferes" with that *legal right* can be brought up on very serious
legal charges (recommend you read the "Witchvox" article, here:
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_ va.html?a= usxx&c=basics& id=12642
<http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_ >va.html?a= usxx&c=basics& id=12642
--------------------- --------- --------- --------
BB re: I have no doubt the Gaia is right about the Law on this Issue,
and I recommend interested Members read the Witch Vox linked in both
posts.
But I know the first time I felt anything I would later look back on as
a Pagan experience was as an Alterboy, looking up at the Statue of Mary
at Immaculate Heart of Mary Church in Buffalo. I was 12, by 14 I knew I
simply was not Catholic, and could never go back to the Church, or be
the Man that such a Huge effort had been expending in raising me to be;
5 years of Catholic School, 2 more years in a Home Run by Catholic
Charities; and just life in General in a working class polish
neighborhood. I still remember the frustrated Nun's blurting out,
"Jezusa i Maryi i Józefa" or something very like it - Jesus, Mary and
Joseph in polish. When ever we were being impossible - Oh how they would
blurt to see me now.
I spent the next 6 years pretty well Agnostic. I may not have been
Legally Old enough to make a legally rational decision about my
spiritual path; but I damn well knew what I was not, and made the only
decisions that were right for me; but I was lucky in my Parents.
My Step Dad was Tolerant, but never really understood, and My Mom in her
own time would become a High Priestess; but I could have just as easily
been unlucky in my Parents, been born to some one whose holy duty would
have been to Literally beat the Devil out of me, and make me accept
JESUS!
We Live in a world where, female circumcision, and Honor Killings are
practiced as matters of faith; and in our very diverse country there is
probably no spiritual belief that is not held by someone's parent.
And while we have Laws that Protect a parents right to raise their
children as they see fit, we also have laws (in some places) to allow
young mothers to get abortions without Parental Consent, because we know
requiring consent will put some children in danger of abuse by parents
that cannot understand, and will not accept their little girl did not
wait for marriage.
No, I think the world is a complex enough place that just as I would not
tell a Gay Child they had an Obligation to tell their Homophobic Parents
of their orientation, I would not tell a young Pagan they had an
obligation to tell an intolerant Parent of their Paganism. Obviously I
am largely speaking of Teens here, but a child his highly unlikely to
Individuate themselves and declare themselves Pagan at 5; thats not how
the human Psyche works.
I think a Childs right to Live a Life free of Abuse trumps any other
legal obligation, and I think the Child as the person who knows their
Parent best, is the person best informed to determine if sharing their
personal truth will only open them up to abuse; however well
intentioned, and misguided that abuse.
Blessings BB.
- 1f.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "gaia_d" Gaia_D@yahoo.com gaia_d
Mon May 2, 2011 1:57 pm (PDT)
Hi BB and All --
I dunno why, but it seems my introductory note to BB's post on this
thread, didn't post -- So i hope no one will mind if i repeat it here,
to ensure that it is posted and made clear:
> GAIA's NOTE (To BB's Reply on "Introducing FAmily / Friends to Wicca):
>
> While BlackBird and i usually agree on most issues, we also sometimes
(respectfully) disagree, and this is one of those times.
>
> I hope this won't confuse or upset anyone, but i think BB will agree
with me when i say that i think it's important for *all* points of view
to be heard and listened to respectfully --
> even if ultimately we still disagree; and to know that we can learn to
do that respectfully --
>
> Hence, BB posted this, and i am approving it -- I hope it will serve
as a good example of how we can (when necessary) agree to disagree,
agreeably!
>
> (And again, Elizabeth, i do apologize if it seemed that i was not
doing that, to begin with! By way of explanation (not excuse, but
explanation) -- Today is my birthday, and i am terribly missing my
darling daughter who passed on to the Summerland just a few short weeks
ago, and who always used to call on my BD; please forgive if i took my
grief out on you!)
>
> Blessings to All -
> ~Gaia
* * * * * *
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "Blackbird" <blackbird_61@com ...>
wrote:
><snipped for brevity>
> >
> I think a Childs right to Live a Life free of Abuse trumps any other
> legal obligation, and I think the Child as the person who knows their
> Parent best, is the person best informed to determine if sharing their
> personal truth will only open them up to abuse; however well
> intentioned, and misguided that abuse.
>
> Blessings BB.
GAIA AGAIN-:
Believe me, i do understand the heartache of having parents
mis-understand and even persecute you for your spiritual interests and
activities -- As i think i've said before, my parents actually disowned
me for mine -- Not just once or twice, but ultimately THREE times, which
absolutely broke my heart -- especially because i was honestly trying to
do the right things, for the right reasons, and hoped they'd be proud of
me for that, at least, even if they didn't understand those spiritual
interests.
And of course, no reasonable person would want a child to have to endure
abuse, for *any* reason.
However, i must point out that there are (*many* other) "remedies"
(including legal) for such abuse, that simply do not require the very
severe and problematic "solution" of (an under-age CHILD )LYING to one's
parents -- especially not to begin with! And it seems to me that a) to
*assume* one's parents are going to be "abusive" and b) to assume that
that assumption "justifies" a pre-emptive LIE, just goes a bit
far.....(Pre-teens and) Teens are notoriously impatient and
narrow-minded, especially when it comes to their parents --
perhaps,sometimes, just as much as (they accuse) their parents of
being.....
Again, i have to say that teens should NOT be trying to "be Wiccan" (or
study Wicca) without their parents prior permission; if they do so, they
just don't understand Wicca and haven't done the research they should
have done, before attempting to study it. -- They certainly should not
be obtaining "training" or claiming to "convert" to Wicca, without such
permission.
As i say in the (previously posted) article, they should be encouraged
by others to concentrate on their schoolwork and extra-curricular
activities, which are of primary importance to just about everything
that will come after, in their lives; and by doing so, they will obtain
a good, strong foundation for any future studies or training in Wicca
(or any other Metaphysical system or religion they might want to
pursue).
Perhaps it's the fact that i am a parent, and have come to understand
and appreciate the difficulties and challenges of being a parent --
especially to a Pre-Teen or Teen -- that gives me this perspective.
While a year may *seem* like forever to a teen, the reality is that
it's really no great sacrifice for a teenager to try to (honestly)
respect their parents' wishes for the few years they may have left under
their parents' roof...and then, when they're old enough to go off on
their own, be (ethically, morally and legally) *responsible* for
themselves, and therefore make their *own* decisions, they can certainly
pursue any training or study in any spiritual Path they desire -- with
the knowledge that they made a true, sincere effort to respect their
parents' wishes for the few years they had left under the roof and the
responsibilities of those parents -- and that's hardly too much to ask!
Now, if that person is older -- say, in their 20's -- and still finds
their parents "persecuting" them for their spiritual interests/
activities, that's alltogether another story -- We could certainly
discuss that if anyone desires. But Again, in *this* thread, i'm
referring to (under-age) CHILDREN, who are under the ethical and legal
responsibilities of their parents/ Guardians.
Sincerely -
~Gaia
As i say, if such fears actually do materialize, there are other
solutions.
- 1g.
-
Re: Agreeing to Disagree.
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Mon May 2, 2011 2:44 pm (PDT)
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "gaia_d" <Gaia_D@...> wrote:com
I hope this won't confuse or upset anyone, but i think BB will agree
with me when i say that i think it's important for *all* points of view
to be heard and listened to respectfully --
even if ultimately we still disagree; and to know that we can learn to
do that respectfully --
BB re:
First off - Blessings Gaia on this sorrowful day. We are well blessed
you have been here to guide us for another year, Even as we acknowleged
your loss.
To the subject at hand, as a long time Solitary one the great benifits
of our online communities is exposure to Ideas I could never have come
up with on my own, and a greater oppertunity to appreicate other POVs on
The Craft. Even if I dont always agree with or find a way to incorperate
those Ideas into my personal craft.
I was reading in True Magick Today, and AmberK was talking about Ritual
Garb, Something I long avoided, just as I favored practicing Karate in
street clothes and only wore a Gi to Formal classes. My feeling having
been, there was nothing special about a Gi, its what people in that part
of the world would have to wear at the time Te was formalized; and If
the need should arise to defend myself I would be in street clothes.
Today, I have several purple Tees, and Lighter Purple Button Downs,
which I prefer to wear for reading. Its not exactly Merlin's Robe, but
after 30 years, I am incorperating just a little nod to the idea of
ritual gear in my craft. :)
Brightest Blessings, BB.
- 1h.
-
Re: Agreeing to Disagree.
Posted by: "gaia_d" Gaia_D@yahoo.com gaia_d
Mon May 2, 2011 2:54 pm (PDT)
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "Blackbird" <blackbird_61@com ...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "gaia_d" Gaia_D@ wrote:com
>
> I hope this won't confuse or upset anyone, but i think BB will agree
> with me when i say that i think it's important for *all* points of
view
> to be heard and listened to respectfully --
>
> even if ultimately we still disagree; and to know that we can learn to
> do that respectfully --
>
> BB re:
>
> First off - Blessings Gaia on this sorrowful day. We are well blessed
> you have been here to guide us for another year, Even as we
acknowleged
> your loss.
GAIA:
Thank you so much, BB -- I can't tell you what those few words of
compassion and comfort mean to me -- I guess i'm more affected by this
than i realized.
>
> To the subject at hand, as a long time Solitary one the great benifits
> of our online communities is exposure to Ideas I could never have come
> up with on my own, and a greater oppertunity to appreicate other POVs
on
> The Craft. Even if I dont always agree with or find a way to
incorperate
> those Ideas into my personal craft.
GAIA:
I completely agree! So often i've been brought up short by reading
someone else's pov, to realize that there are other ways of looking at
things.....like this very issue we've been discussing. I may state my
position strongly, but beleive me, your views (and those of Elizabeth)
have made me *think*, which i always appreciate.
> BB:
> I was reading in True Magick Today, and AmberK was talking about
Ritual
> Garb, Something I long avoided, just as I favored practicing Karate in
> street clothes and only wore a Gi to Formal classes. My feeling having
> been, there was nothing special about a Gi, its what people in that
part
> of the world would have to wear at the time Te was formalized; and If
> the need should arise to defend myself I would be in street clothes.
>
> Today, I have several purple Tees, and Lighter Purple Button Downs,
> which I prefer to wear for reading. Its not exactly Merlin's Robe, but
> after 30 years, I am incorperating just a little nod to the idea of
> ritual gear in my craft. :)
>
> Brightest Blessings, BB.
>
GAIA:
<nod> I understand -- and appreciate what you're saying here --
My training (and experience) always said that having other (ritual) garb
(which we don't wear except during ritual) helps us move into the
Metaphysical / spiritual "Altered States" that (good) Ritual attempts to
achieve.
Thanks so much for posting this, BB --
Blessed Be -
~Gaia
- 1i.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "Elizabeth Brickman" radicalgarden@yahoo.com radicalgarden
Mon May 2, 2011 7:26 pm (PDT)
Thank you for following up on the earlier message. I'm sorry for the loss of you loved one, but do take care of yourself on your birthday! I may also have seemed short but its not my intention. I do not have the internet at home and have to use my phone to read my email. Its so difficult to type, and impossible to convey tone of voice. I do enjoy all of your regular posting. Its just in this one instance that i somewhat dissagree. I like the advice for a teenager to participate in the parents religion or even spend those years practicing visualization. As a teen that would have made my life a lot easier. I was a ministers daughter with a snoopy step mother. They found my little notebook with hand drawn pictures and correspondember and ripped it to shreds before my eyes and forced me to denounce my faith. It was very traumatic. They told me i was a power hungry devil worshiper. As much as i wished i had been more respectfull and
waited...trying to have a conversation of reason..a bit dangerous.
- 1j.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "Elizabeth Brickman" radicalgarden@yahoo.com radicalgarden
Mon May 2, 2011 7:27 pm (PDT)
I'm sorry i ran out of space to reply but i wanted to add that i remember being very upset with silver ravenwolf for encouraging kids to lie to thier parents. I think i would tell a teen with parents like ours to move out before exploring witchcraft. I just wouldn't tell them to be honest about the interest if doing so may harm them. A your mileage may vary kind of thing. Maybe in the end we only disagree on some semantics.
On Mon May 2nd, 2011 4:57 PM EDT gaia_d wrote:
>
>Hi BB and All --
>
>I dunno why, but it seems my introductory note to BB's post on this
>thread, didn't post -- So i hope no one will mind if i repeat it here,
>to ensure that it is posted and made clear:
>
>
>
>> GAIA's NOTE (To BB's Reply on "Introducing FAmily / Friends to Wicca):
>>
>> While BlackBird and i usually agree on most issues, we also sometimes
>(respectfully) disagree, and this is one of those times.
>>
>> I hope this won't confuse or upset anyone, but i think BB will agree
>with me when i say that i think it's important for *all* points of view
>to be heard and listened to respectfully --
>> even if ultimately we still disagree; and to know that we can learn to
>do that respectfully --
>>
>> Hence, BB posted this, and i am approving it -- I hope it will serve
>as a good example of how we can (when necessary) agree to disagree,
>agreeably!
>>
>> (And again, Elizabeth, i do apologize if it seemed that i was not
>doing that, to begin with! By way of explanation (not excuse, but
>explanation) -- Today is my birthday, and i am terribly missing my
>darling daughter who passed on to the Summerland just a few short weeks
>ago, and who always used to call on my BD; please forgive if i took my
>grief out on you!)
>>
>> Blessings to All -
>> ~Gaia
>
>
>* * * * * *
>
>
>--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "Blackbird" <blackbird_61@com ...>
>wrote:
>
>><snipped for brevity>
>> >
>> I think a Childs right to Live a Life free of Abuse trumps any other
>> legal obligation, and I think the Child as the person who knows their
>> Parent best, is the person best informed to determine if sharing their
>> personal truth will only open them up to abuse; however well
>> intentioned, and misguided that abuse.
>>
>> Blessings BB.
>
>
>
>GAIA AGAIN-:
>
>Believe me, i do understand the heartache of having parents
>mis-understand and even persecute you for your spiritual interests and
>activities -- As i think i've said before, my parents actually disowned
>me for mine -- Not just once or twice, but ultimately THREE times, which
>absolutely broke my heart -- especially because i was honestly trying to
>do the right things, for the right reasons, and hoped they'd be proud of
>me for that, at least, even if they didn't understand those spiritual
>interests.
>
>And of course, no reasonable person would want a child to have to endure
>abuse, for *any* reason.
>
>However, i must point out that there are (*many* other) "remedies"
>(including legal) for such abuse, that simply do not require the very
>severe and problematic "solution" of (an under-age CHILD )LYING to one's
>parents -- especially not to begin with! And it seems to me that a) to
>*assume* one's parents are going to be "abusive" and b) to assume that
>that assumption "justifies" a pre-emptive LIE, just goes a bit
>far.....(Pre-teens and) Teens are notoriously impatient and
>narrow-minded, especially when it comes to their parents --
>perhaps,sometimes, just as much as (they accuse) their parents of
>being.....
>
>Again, i have to say that teens should NOT be trying to "be Wiccan" (or
>study Wicca) without their parents prior permission; if they do so, they
>just don't understand Wicca and haven't done the research they should
>have done, before attempting to study it. -- They certainly should not
>be obtaining "training" or claiming to "convert" to Wicca, without such
>permission.
>
>As i say in the (previously posted) article, they should be encouraged
>by others to concentrate on their schoolwork and extra-curricular
>activities, which are of primary importance to just about everything
>that will come after, in their lives; and by doing so, they will obtain
>a good, strong foundation for any future studies or training in Wicca
>(or any other Metaphysical system or religion they might want to
>pursue).
>
>Perhaps it's the fact that i am a parent, and have come to understand
>and appreciate the difficulties and challenges of being a parent --
>especially to a Pre-Teen or Teen -- that gives me this perspective.
>
>While a year may *seem* like forever to a teen, the reality is that
>it's really no great sacrifice for a teenager to try to (honestly)
>respect their parents' wishes for the few years they may have left under
>their parents' roof...and then, when they're old enough to go off on
>their own, be (ethically, morally and legally) *responsible* for
>themselves, and therefore make their *own* decisions, they can certainly
>pursue any training or study in any spiritual Path they desire -- with
>the knowledge that they made a true, sincere effort to respect their
>parents' wishes for the few years they had left under the roof and the
>responsibilities of those parents -- and that's hardly too much to ask!
>
>Now, if that person is older -- say, in their 20's -- and still finds
>their parents "persecuting" them for their spiritual interests/
>activities, that's alltogether another story -- We could certainly
>discuss that if anyone desires. But Again, in *this* thread, i'm
>referring to (under-age) CHILDREN, who are under the ethical and legal
>responsibilities of their parents/ Guardians.
>
>Sincerely -
>
>~Gaia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As i say, if such fears actually do materialize, there are other
>solutions.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
- 1k.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "Jude DaShiell" jdashiel@shellworld.net
Tue May 3, 2011 3:35 am (PDT)
There's also an option available to any of the young people not even
mentioned here so far as I can tell. They can treat certain areas of
their lives as need to know areas. Do the parents need to know and if
so for what reasons (parents asking questions is not a valid reason
either). The Federal Government uses need to know concept all of the
time to good effect especially on the more sensitive levels of
information. For that reason a good knowledge of cipher techniques and
codes is useful for young people to acquire in their well grounded
educations and who knows they may benefit the Armed Forces with such
capabilities later in life should they end up in that group of people.
On Mon, 2 May 2011, Elizabeth Brickman wrote:
> I'm sorry i ran out of space to reply but i wanted to add that i remember being very upset with silver ravenwolf for encouraging kids to lie to thier parents. I think i would tell a teen with parents like ours to move out before exploring witchcraft. I just wouldn't tell them to be honest about the interest if doing so may harm them. A your mileage may vary kind of thing. Maybe in the end we only disagree on some semantics.
>
> On Mon May 2nd, 2011 4:57 PM EDT gaia_d wrote:
>
> >
> >Hi BB and All --
> >
> >I dunno why, but it seems my introductory note to BB's post on this
> >thread, didn't post -- So i hope no one will mind if i repeat it here,
> >to ensure that it is posted and made clear:
> >
> >
> >
> >> GAIA's NOTE (To BB's Reply on "Introducing FAmily / Friends to Wicca):
> >>
> >> While BlackBird and i usually agree on most issues, we also sometimes
> >(respectfully) disagree, and this is one of those times.
> >>
> >> I hope this won't confuse or upset anyone, but i think BB will agree
> >with me when i say that i think it's important for *all* points of view
> >to be heard and listened to respectfully --
> >> even if ultimately we still disagree; and to know that we can learn to
> >do that respectfully --
> >>
> >> Hence, BB posted this, and i am approving it -- I hope it will serve
> >as a good example of how we can (when necessary) agree to disagree,
> >agreeably!
> >>
> >> (And again, Elizabeth, i do apologize if it seemed that i was not
> >doing that, to begin with! By way of explanation (not excuse, but
> >explanation) -- Today is my birthday, and i am terribly missing my
> >darling daughter who passed on to the Summerland just a few short weeks
> >ago, and who always used to call on my BD; please forgive if i took my
> >grief out on you!)
> >>
> >> Blessings to All -
> >> ~Gaia
> >
> >
> >* * * * * *
> >
> >
> >--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "Blackbird" <blackbird_61@com ...>
> >wrote:
> >
> >><snipped for brevity>
> >> >
> >> I think a Childs right to Live a Life free of Abuse trumps any other
> >> legal obligation, and I think the Child as the person who knows their
> >> Parent best, is the person best informed to determine if sharing their
> >> personal truth will only open them up to abuse; however well
> >> intentioned, and misguided that abuse.
> >>
> >> Blessings BB.
> >
> >
> >
> >GAIA AGAIN-:
> >
> >Believe me, i do understand the heartache of having parents
> >mis-understand and even persecute you for your spiritual interests and
> >activities -- As i think i've said before, my parents actually disowned
> >me for mine -- Not just once or twice, but ultimately THREE times, which
> >absolutely broke my heart -- especially because i was honestly trying to
> >do the right things, for the right reasons, and hoped they'd be proud of
> >me for that, at least, even if they didn't understand those spiritual
> >interests.
> >
> >And of course, no reasonable person would want a child to have to endure
> >abuse, for *any* reason.
> >
> >However, i must point out that there are (*many* other) "remedies"
> >(including legal) for such abuse, that simply do not require the very
> >severe and problematic "solution" of (an under-age CHILD )LYING to one's
> >parents -- especially not to begin with! And it seems to me that a) to
> >*assume* one's parents are going to be "abusive" and b) to assume that
> >that assumption "justifies" a pre-emptive LIE, just goes a bit
> >far.....(Pre-teens and) Teens are notoriously impatient and
> >narrow-minded, especially when it comes to their parents --
> >perhaps,sometimes, just as much as (they accuse) their parents of
> >being.....
> >
> >Again, i have to say that teens should NOT be trying to "be Wiccan" (or
> >study Wicca) without their parents prior permission; if they do so, they
> >just don't understand Wicca and haven't done the research they should
> >have done, before attempting to study it. -- They certainly should not
> >be obtaining "training" or claiming to "convert" to Wicca, without such
> >permission.
> >
> >As i say in the (previously posted) article, they should be encouraged
> >by others to concentrate on their schoolwork and extra-curricular
> >activities, which are of primary importance to just about everything
> >that will come after, in their lives; and by doing so, they will obtain
> >a good, strong foundation for any future studies or training in Wicca
> >(or any other Metaphysical system or religion they might want to
> >pursue).
> >
> >Perhaps it's the fact that i am a parent, and have come to understand
> >and appreciate the difficulties and challenges of being a parent --
> >especially to a Pre-Teen or Teen -- that gives me this perspective.
> >
> >While a year may *seem* like forever to a teen, the reality is that
> >it's really no great sacrifice for a teenager to try to (honestly)
> >respect their parents' wishes for the few years they may have left under
> >their parents' roof...and then, when they're old enough to go off on
> >their own, be (ethically, morally and legally) *responsible* for
> >themselves, and therefore make their *own* decisions, they can certainly
> >pursue any training or study in any spiritual Path they desire -- with
> >the knowledge that they made a true, sincere effort to respect their
> >parents' wishes for the few years they had left under the roof and the
> >responsibilities of those parents -- and that's hardly too much to ask!
> >
> >Now, if that person is older -- say, in their 20's -- and still finds
> >their parents "persecuting" them for their spiritual interests/
> >activities, that's alltogether another story -- We could certainly
> >discuss that if anyone desires. But Again, in *this* thread, i'm
> >referring to (under-age) CHILDREN, who are under the ethical and legal
> >responsibilities of their parents/ Guardians.
> >
> >Sincerely -
> >
> >~Gaia
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As i say, if such fears actually do materialize, there are other
> >solutions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --------------------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
- 1l.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "gaia_d" Gaia_D@yahoo.com gaia_d
Tue May 3, 2011 3:57 am (PDT)
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@..com .>
wrote:
>
> There's also an option available to any of the young people not even
> mentioned here so far as I can tell. They can treat certain areas of
> their lives as need to know areas. Do the parents need to know and if
> so for what reasons (parents asking questions is not a valid reason
> either). The Federal Government uses need to know concept all of the
> time to good effect especially on the more sensitive levels of
> information. <snipped for brevity>
GAIA:
Well, as i said before -- according to (United States) law, parents have
an absolute legal *right* (and responsibility) to determine what, if
any, religious training, education, etc their (under-aged) children
receive, since they are also held (both ethically and legally)
*responsible* for those children -- Please see the Witchvox article
originally referred to, for the details and specifics on that) --
So i think it's fairly obvious that the law would absolutely support and
uphold their "need to know" in *any* case -- as i think we (Pagan
teachers, leaders, etc) should do.
I guess i'd just also want to add, that i just don't understand this
interest in/ effort to deprive parents of their legal, ethical and moral
rights in the case of their (under-aged) children, as if there is a
(pre-determined) presumption that they deliberately wish to *harm* those
children rather than protect them, and as if others have a greater stake
or interest in their well-being, than the parents who have after all
raised and cared for them from infancy; I think it's a rather
dangerous, irresponsible, and troubling presumption.
The upshot is, If Parents don't want their childen studying (or
converting to) Paganism, that is their perfect right, as long as the
child is in their household and under their roof -- and the kid will
most likely have many, many years to "correct" that "mistake" if they
still wish to do so when they have the legal right and reach the age of
Maturity. It won't kill them to wait a couple of years, to respect
their parents wishes and to focus on what should be their primary
consideration at this point in their lives: their schoolwork and
extra-curricular activities.
~Gaia
- 1m.
-
Re: On Introducing Family/ Friends to Wicca
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Tue May 3, 2011 5:31 am (PDT)
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "gaia_d" <Gaia_D@...> wrote:com
>
I guess i'd just also want to add, that i just don't understand this
interest in/ effort to deprive parents of their legal, ethical and moral
rights in the case of their (under-aged) children, as if there is a
(pre-determined) presumption that they deliberately wish to *harm* those
children rather than protect them, and as if others have a greater stake
or interest in their well-being, than the parents who have after all
raised and cared for them from infancy; I think it's a rather
dangerous, irresponsible, and troubling presumption.
BB re:
It is not a presumption that a Parent does not have the Childs best
interest at heart,
It is instead, I think, a recognition of the possibility.
As I said, I was lucky in my Parents, Liz apparently was not so lucky.
My Grandmother was a very strict Catholic who would have never
understood my Agnosticism,
Much less my Paganism, and My sister followed in her foot steps for a
very long time.
Getting back to your earlier Point,
I could not have lived my life with Integrity as a Catholic beyond Age
14.
and Living a Lie, is Living a Lie, be it for Just a few years, or for
your Parents. It's still living a lie.
At the same time ... If one takes the Histories of our Fam Trads to be
Genuine,
and I know there is disagreement on this issue; but I do Honor, Z.
Budepest, Raven Grimmasi,
and others as keepers of a true flame; and so We have had for Centuries
had to be
very careful who we share our paths with;
Did our spiritual ancestors forfeit their integrity and their power, by
lying to the church
when burning was the only other option; I'm no fan of it, as anyone
that knows me knows;
but sometimes we have to walk the path of the Trickster.
Nuff Said, Blessings, BB.
- 2.
-
CDW- PS of Pents.
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Mon May 2, 2011 11:43 am (PDT)
Hi All,
Happy Beltaine, even if it is a day late; Today let us pause a moment to
reflect on the Ps of Pents (Gendron Tarot.)
<http://www.anar-mura.com/ > I absolutely love thistgimg/gd/ pents_ps. jpg
card, it is one of my Favorite in Mel's deck; maybe my favorite after
the Ps of Swords <http://www.anar-mura.com/ > ; fortgimg/gd/ ps_swords. jpg
me it captures the Spirit of the Ki, and in doing so maybe the spirit of
"The Mother".
So we have a Young Girl flowers in her hair, riding out into the world
riding on her pony. She could be anyone's little girl, she carries with
her the promise, the hope, the sweetness and vulnerability inherent in
little girls.
Behind her, Flowers in her hair, we see The Ki; both as an Echo of the
Woman she may become, and as a spirit watching over her. She is riding
boldly forth into the world, confident in her security; but that
security - cannot come from her, from one so young - it must be gifted
to her by us. We must gift her with the space and security to explore
her possibilities, to find out for herself who she is; and this is quite
a challenge.
As a Parent I know, (and believe looking at my daughter now 30 I got the
balance close to right.) but it is a challenge, how much space is too
much space, how much freedom to much freedom; am I helping her find
herself, or shaping her into a little me. Sadly even today, even in this
'Free Country' I see two many parents who feel it is their duty to make
their child into a mini-me; but I feel pretty sure if God/dess wanted me
cloned, my mother would have had twins.
In a recent post Gaia Said,
Ostara / Spring Equinox
<http://groups.yahoo.com/ > isgroup/Witch_ Essentials/ message/25120
traditionally the beginning of the "flirtatious" courtship of the Maiden
Goddess by the youthful God; with Beltane representing the passionate,
"first Trysting"("Tryst" being a somewhat old-fashioned word for
romantic interlude); and Litha or Summer Solstice representing the
mature, "Married-type" love.
And I feel this fits this card as well, we do not have the first shoots
of spring pushing up through the last of the snow, we might find at
Ostra, nor the Browned grass of Summer; no this card is Lush, full of
Promise, Filled with Green; not so much the Girl on the pony as the
Goddess Behind her; but it is also that moment of uncertainty and
transition; and that too fits.
For me the Ps of Pents is a Portrait of the Ki; much as I see the Ps of
Swords as a Portrait of Nan, and now that we have closed that circle I
believe it is time to leave you with that image.
Brightest Blessings, Bb.
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