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1a.: Creed or Chaos? - Food for thought from David Brooks. From: blackbird
1b.: Re: On Mormonism & Wicca: (Was: Creed or Chaos? - From: gaia_d
1c.: Re: Creed or Chaos? - Food for thought from David Brooks. From: blackbird

2.: New Member - Laralee From: laraleeboyd

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1a.: Creed or Chaos? - Food for thought from David Brooks.

Posted by: "blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61

Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:07 am (PDT)

Hi All,
This morning I was reading David Brooks' column on "The Book of Mormon"; a play, not the actual book. Which in his words,

The central theme of "The Book of Mormon" is that many religious stories are silly — the idea that God would plant golden plates in upstate New York. Many religious doctrines are rigid and out of touch, ... But religion itself can do enormous good as long as people take religious teaching metaphorically and not literally ...

but this is an Idea David Elegantly Challanges in the text that follows.

The only problem with "The Book of Mormon" (you realize when thinking about it later) is that its theme is not quite true. Vague, uplifting, nondoctrinal religiosity doesn't actually last. The religions that grow, succor and motivate people to perform heroic acts of service are usually theologically rigorous, arduous in practice and definite in their convictions about what is True and False.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/22/opinion/22brooks.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

As a rather Eclectic Pagan, I expect I am in someways close to the very personification of ... Vague, uplifting, nondoctrinal religiosity; In others I think I am honestly among the most fierce defenders of my own convictions I know so I am not saying I endorse David's point of view here, but I do believe it is an arguement that is worth considering; worth reflecting on in light of our own paths.

Blessings, BB.

I am the Cup which holds Eternity.
        All other Cups
Have their Source in Me.
                   The Goddess Innana.

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1b.: Re: On Mormonism & Wicca: (Was: Creed or Chaos? -

Posted by: "gaia_d" Gaia_D@yahoo.com gaia_d

Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:38 pm (PDT)

--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups.com, blackbird <blackbird_61@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> This morning I was reading David Brooks' column on "The Book of
Mormon"; a play, not the actual book. Which in his words,
> Â
>
> The central theme of â€œThe Book of Mormonâ€ is that many
religious stories are silly â€"

GAIA:

I used to be a very devout member of the Mormon (actually, LDS -
"Latter-day Saint") religion, and i am very familiar with their history
and doctrine.

Actually, the basic, central theme of "Book of Mormon" (the book/
scripture, not the play) is that members of religions tend to develop a
creeping self-righteousness and judgementalism toward others, that
eventually leads to their downfall and the "displeasure" -- often even
"punishment" -- of God. That theme is restated in various ways, over
and over and over again, in the Book, with different groups, iin
different eras.... And i think it's one with which many Pagans could
certainly agree (at least to some extent).

Another very interesting fact is that every major event in early LDS
history occurred on or very near one of the Wiccan Sabbats -- Solstices
or Eqinoxes.

Furthermore, many LDS doctrines are very similar to Pagan --especially
Wiccan -- principles:

Here's an article i wrote on the topic, which i hope might be of
interest:

Wicca & LDS (Mormon)

Commonalities / Differences:

By Gaia

First of all, while it's not well known, and the modern church leaders
try to keep it quiet, Joseph Smith and other early leaders of the church
were *deeply* into metaphysics, magick, etc.:

Joseph Smith (the founder and first Prophet and Prsident of the LDS
Church) practiced magick and owned magickal tools -- including an athame
and magickal texts. He studied the Kabbalah (the Jewish
mystical-magickal system that has been heavily incorporated into Wicca)
-- in fact, many people believe that some of his most profound and
unique doctrines (like eternal progression, eternal marriage, etc) came
as a direct result of his Kabbalah study. (See "Joseph Smith and the
Kabbalah: The Occult Connection" by Lance S. Owens – See:
www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm <http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm>

Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other early LDS leaders all believed in
and practiced magick, astrology, and more. Originally, Joseph Smith
denounced reincarnation as "a doctrine of devils" but he later changed
his mind and *taught* it. (I can provide you evidence for this if you'd
like)

There is an excellent, very well researched book on all of this and MUCH
MORE, by an (award-winning) (formerly) LDS historian, named D Michael
Quinn, titled "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View."

There are a LOT of LDS who don't like the book because it reveals
information the church would rather keep quiet, but it will provide you
with some fascinating information that will help you realize that your
interest/practice in Wicca is NOT something so strange, unique, or bad.
(You can prolly find the book for reduced price at
"www.allbookstores.com" , or at the library on an inter-library loan if
necessary!)

But there is yet MORE.

1. The BIBLE has many positive examples of magick: I can post an
article on this if you wish --

2. (Modern) LDS doctrine has many things in common with Paganism and
Wicca:

a. Mormons – like Wiccans -- believe that the Earth is alive and has
a "soul" - (See for example, LDS scriptures D&C 84 and 88; and
Moses 7 – here's a quote from Moses 7:

"49 And when Enoch heard the earth mourn, he wept, and cried unto the
Lord, saying: O Lord, wilt thou not have compassion upon the earth? Wilt
thou not bless the children of Noah?"

b. Mormons – like Wiccans -- believe that God is "In and through all
things," -

For example, see D&C 88:

"This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of
the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made. And the light
which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth
your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the
immensity of space—The light which is in all things, which giveth
life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed,
even the power of God."

c.. Mormons believe in (but don't like to talk or do much about!)
"Heavenly Mother", the Divine Feminine (See for example, D&C 132);
Wiccans worship God and Goddess.

d. Mormons believe in a "Pre-mortal/ pre-earth" Spirit existence, and
Wiccans see this life as part of an eternal Cycle of
Birth-Death-Re-birth .

e. Mormons beleive in eternal progresssion for both God and humans,
which is somewhat similar to the Wiccan ideals expressed in the Charge
of the Goddess:

Keep pure your highest ideal; strive ever towards it, let nothing turn
you aside or hinder you; for Mine is the secret door which opens upon
the land of youth, and Mine is the cup of wine of life, which is the
cauldron of Cerridwen, which is the Holy Grail of immortality.

I am the gracious Goddess, Who gives the gift of joy unto the heart of
humankind. Upon Earth, I give the knowledge of the Spirit Eternal; and
beyond death, I give peace, and freedom, and reunion with those who have
gone before.

Nor do I do not demand sacrifice; for behold, I am the Mother of all
things, and My love is poured out upon the Earth…..

Call unto your soul; arise, and come unto me; for I am the soul of
Nature, Who gives life to the Universe. From Me all things proceed, and
unto Me all things must return. And before My face, O beloved of Gods
and of all peoples, let your innermost Divine self be enfolded in the
rapture of the Infinite."

("Charge of the Goddess",
http://www.mysticmooncoven.org/rede.htm
<http://www.mysticmooncoven.org/rede.htm>

HERE ARE SOME INTERESTING RESOURCES for more info on these topics:

General Books:

- "Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom, Bride of God" by C Matthews

- "When God Was A Woman" by M Stone

- "the Once and Future Goddess" by

- "the Hebrew Goddess" by Raphael Patai

- "The Goddess in the Scriptures" by Margaret Starbird

- Also, the following LDS BOOKS:

- "Women and Authority" edited by Maxine Hanks.

- "Strangers in Paradox" by by Paul and Margaret Toscano

- "God the Mother and Other Theological Essays" by Janice Allred

- "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" by D. Michael Quinn

ONLINE RESOURCES (LDS)

- Website: http://www.greaterthings.com/MormonGoddess/
<http://www.greaterthings.com/MormonGoddess/>

- " God the Mother in Mormonism" by Amber Satterwhite

- "Shekinah the Presence of Diety" - discusses the Mormon Heavenly
Mother

- "The Common Origin of the Ancient Hebrew/Pagan Religion and the Demise
of the Hebrew Goddess" by Fred C. Collier

http://www3.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/goddess-return-herman.html
<http://www3.eu.spiritweb.org/Spirit/goddess-return-herman.html>

http://www.lds-mormon.com/ja1.shtml
<http://www.lds-mormon.com/ja1.shtml>

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goddesschristians/
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/goddesschristians/>

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusandtheGoddess/?yguid=6029923
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusandtheGoddess/?yguid=6029923>

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1c.: Re: Creed or Chaos? - Food for thought from David Brooks.

Posted by: "blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61

Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:15 pm (PDT)

My Friend Victoria sent me this reply, and with her premission I am sharing it with our group. BB.

I'm not sure, but I think that "religion" implies a structure or organization while "spirituality" can be quite a personal thing…and need not be characterized as vague or non-doctrinal when, in fact, the essence of both these things – religion and spirituality – focus on is, was and always will be a Mystery.

It feels to me that the moment you get doctrinal, you limit, and once you limit, you exclude Mystery.

In my book, what's needed is training as children in connection to one's own connection to that Mystery, to one's feelings in response to the ongoing cycle that is life in every dimension. I am passionate and far from vague in my life and ongoing acknowledgment and practice of my feelings about that connection…and, from what I know of you, I'd think it was so for you as well.

V

Victoria Pendragon

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I am the Cup which holds Eternity.
All other Cups
Have their Source in Me.
The Goddess Innana.

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2.: New Member - Laralee

Posted by: "laraleeboyd" laralee1955@gmail.com laraleeboyd

Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:14 pm (PDT)

Stumbled upon this tonight while thinking it would be good to converse with other former "Mormons". I live in the Bible Belt now, but was born in SLC. Left the church 25 years ago. I am now nearly a crone ! Weaver/Artisan using floor looms to create rag rugs. Also, creating and selling vintage-type aprons. Spent the past three years (as of today) re-building a house. Several magickal areas existed and created a few more. Probably my gifts and attributes are inherited. Recognizing them is fun. Keeping my mouth shut and all of my other senses open is interesting. I taught my daughters to keep an open mind, but not so open as to let their brains tumble out. I am a solitary as my husband needs to teach school here and what the neighborhood doesn't know is for the best. Had an interesting night Tuesday. Bad storms hit our street. Every one of my neighbors had major or minor property damage. We did not get a scratch or even loose one shingle. Was I lucky ? Had just read some "protection material"...had not even done any of the spells, etc yet. Books were in the dresser drawer in the upstairs room I was sleeping in. Large tree not 20' from the window fell the other way !?! We were able to help various neighbors as we had electricity and none of them did. Also, able to let one of them borrow our truck to take a dog to the vet hospital an hour away once we got it out from under a tree. Also, lent ladders, tarps, tools, etc. Babysat. My daughter says that with the damage all around us, I must have built up some good karma to have been missed! I think I built up some more this past week for the next storm. I might be a hedge witch, probably not a Wiccan, though. Hope I am welcome here. Thanks.

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