Messages In This Digest (7 Messages)
- 1a.
- Re: On Mormonism & Wicca: (Was: Creed or Chaos? - From: Blackbird
- 2a.
- mormons and stuff From: rosetta lenton
- 2b.
- Re: mormons and stuff From: airmidceltic@ymail.com
- 2c.
- Re: mormons and stuff From: Laralee Boyd
- 2d.
- Re: mormons and stuff From: Max Jones
- 3a.
- 5 of Pents - The Right to Thrive. From: Blackbird
- 3b.
- Re: 5 of Pents - The Right to Thrive. From: Jude DaShiell
Messages
- 1a.
-
Re: On Mormonism & Wicca: (Was: Creed or Chaos? -
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:51 am (PDT)
Thanks for this one,
I only had a chance to scan over it this morning, but I do find the
Parallels fascinating; and definately worth looking into with more
depth. : ) My own initial reaction to David's Piece and part of my
reason for posting it here was the stress in placed the discipline a
religion can impose on it's devotee's and how that discipline builds
charactor.
I immediately thought of a friend of my Moms who runs a Brit Trad Coven
in Western New York; (I don't remeber the name.) To join this coven you
spend the first year and a day pretty well memorizing a rather thick
Book of Shadows; not so much Craft as Craft History, Metaphysics, and
such ... not everyone is up to that much homework, but if you work it
through; well like getting a Dan Belt in Karate, not only can you call
yourself a Wiccan, but you know what being a Wiccan is, you wont get
caught out not knowing...
Who Gardener was, what an Anthame is, which color or incense corresponds
with what element or task. It is a Discipline, but like most Disciplines
that surive it does build you up, leave you a better more confident
person than when you started out. Another arguement for formal
Initation; not that I meant to go there when I started. Blessings, BB.
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "gaia_d" <Gaia_D@...> wrote:com
GAIA:
I used to be a very devout member of the Mormon (actually, LDS -
"Latter-day Saint") religion, and i am very familiar with their history
and doctrine.
Actually, the basic, central theme of "Book of Mormon" (the book/
scripture, not the play) is that members of religions tend to develop a
creeping self-righteousness and judgementalism toward others, that
eventually leads to their downfall and the "displeasure" -- often even
"punishment" -- of God. That theme is restated in various ways, over
and over and over again, in the Book, with different groups, iin
different eras.... And i think it's one with which many Pagans could
certainly agree (at least to some extent).
Another very interesting fact is that every major event in early LDS
history occurred on or very near one of the Wiccan Sabbats -- Solstices
or Eqinoxes.
Furthermore, many LDS doctrines are very similar to Pagan --especially
Wiccan -- principles:
Here's an article i wrote on the topic, which i hope might be of
interest:
Wicca & LDS (Mormon)
Commonalities / Differences:
By Gaia
First of all, while it's not well known, and the modern church leaders
try to keep it quiet, Joseph Smith and other early leaders of the church
were *deeply* into metaphysics, magick, etc.:
Joseph Smith (the founder and first Prophet and Prsident of the LDS
Church) practiced magick and owned magickal tools -- including an athame
and magickal texts. He studied the Kabbalah (the Jewish
mystical-magickal system that has been heavily incorporated into Wicca)
-- in fact, many people believe that some of his most profound and
unique doctrines (like eternal progression, eternal marriage, etc) came
as a direct result of his Kabbalah study. (See "Joseph Smith and the
Kabbalah: The Occult Connection" by Lance S. Owens – See:
www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm <http://www.gnosis. org/jskabb1. >htm
Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other early LDS leaders all believed in
and practiced magick, astrology, and more. Originally, Joseph Smith
denounced reincarnation as "a doctrine of devils" but he later changed
his mind and *taught* it. (I can provide you evidence for this if you'd
like)
There is an excellent, very well researched book on all of this and MUCH
MORE, by an (award-winning) (formerly) LDS historian, named D Michael
Quinn, titled "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View."
There are a LOT of LDS who don't like the book because it reveals
information the church would rather keep quiet, but it will provide you
with some fascinating information that will help you realize that your
interest/practice in Wicca is NOT something so strange, unique, or bad.
(You can prolly find the book for reduced price at
"www.allbookstores.com" , or at the library on an inter-library loan if
necessary!)
But there is yet MORE.
1. The BIBLE has many positive examples of magick: I can post an
article on this if you wish --
2. (Modern) LDS doctrine has many things in common with Paganism and
Wicca:
a. Mormons – like Wiccans -- believe that the Earth is alive and has
a "soul" - (See for example, LDS scriptures D&C 84 and 88; and Moses 7
– here's a quote from Moses 7:
"49 And when Enoch heard the earth mourn, he wept, and cried unto the
Lord, saying: O Lord, wilt thou not have compassion upon the earth? Wilt
thou not bless the children of Noah?"
b. Mormons – like Wiccans -- believe that God is "In and through all
things," -
For example, see D&C 88:
"This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of
the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made. And the light
which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth
your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the
immensity of space—The light which is in all things, which giveth
life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed,
even the power of God."
c.. Mormons believe in (but don't like to talk or do much about!)
"Heavenly Mother", the Divine Feminine (See for example, D&C 132);
Wiccans worship God and Goddess.
d. Mormons believe in a "Pre-mortal/ pre-earth" Spirit existence, and
Wiccans see this life as part of an eternal Cycle of
Birth-Death-Re-birth .
e. Mormons beleive in eternal progresssion for both God and humans,
which is somewhat similar to the Wiccan ideals expressed in the Charge
of the Goddess:
Keep pure your highest ideal; strive ever towards it, let nothing turn
you aside or hinder you; for Mine is the secret door which opens upon
the land of youth, and Mine is the cup of wine of life, which is the
cauldron of Cerridwen, which is the Holy Grail of immortality.
I am the gracious Goddess, Who gives the gift of joy unto the heart of
humankind. Upon Earth, I give the knowledge of the Spirit Eternal; and
beyond death, I give peace, and freedom, and reunion with those who have
gone before.
Nor do I do not demand sacrifice; for behold, I am the Mother of all
things, and My love is poured out upon the Earth…..
Call unto your soul; arise, and come unto me; for I am the soul of
Nature, Who gives life to the Universe. From Me all things proceed, and
unto Me all things must return. And before My face, O beloved of Gods
and of all peoples, let your innermost Divine self be enfolded in the
rapture of the Infinite."
("Charge of the Goddess", http://www.mysticmooncoven.org/ rede.htm
<http://www.mysticmooncoven.org/ >rede.htm
HERE ARE SOME INTERESTING RESOURCES for more info on these topics:
General Books:
- "Sophia: Goddess of Wisdom, Bride of God" by C Matthews
- "When God Was A Woman" by M Stone
- "the Once and Future Goddess" by
- "the Hebrew Goddess" by Raphael Patai
- "The Goddess in the Scriptures" by Margaret Starbird
- Also, the following LDS BOOKS:
- "Women and Authority" edited by Maxine Hanks.
- "Strangers in Paradox" by by Paul and Margaret Toscano
- "God the Mother and Other Theological Essays" by Janice Allred
- "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" by D. Michael Quinn
ONLINE RESOURCES (LDS)
- Website: http://www.greaterthings.com/ MormonGoddess/
<http://www.greaterthings.com/ >MormonGoddess/
- " God the Mother in Mormonism" by Amber Satterwhite
- "Shekinah the Presence of Diety" - discusses the Mormon Heavenly
Mother
- "The Common Origin of the Ancient Hebrew/Pagan Religion and the Demise
of the Hebrew Goddess" by Fred C. Collier
http://www3.eu.spiritweb. org/Spirit/ goddess-return- herman.html
<http://www3.eu.spiritweb. >org/Spirit/ goddess-return- herman.html
http://www.lds-mormon.com/ ja1.shtml
<http://www.lds-mormon.com/ >ja1.shtml
http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/goddesschr istians/
<http://groups.yahoo.com/ >group/goddesschr istians/
http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/Jesusandth eGoddess/ ?yguid=6029923
<http://groups.yahoo.com/ >group/Jesusandth eGoddess/ ?yguid=6029923
- 2a.
-
mormons and stuff
Posted by: "rosetta lenton" whitewolfafc@btinternet.com whitewolfafc@btinternet.com
Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:51 am (PDT)
hi all, been a lurker for some time but this got me writing... as an ex jehovahs
witness i'm amazed the mormons are so in tune with wicca stuff.
as far as the jws are concerned, if you are not one of them you are from the
devil--period.
25 years brainwashed with them taught me a life lesson i will never
forget--never give your power away,
Rosetta
- 2b.
-
Re: mormons and stuff
Posted by: "airmidceltic@ymail.com" airmidceltic@ymail.com airmidceltic@ymail.com
Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:21 am (PDT)
Were you born into it or converted. Most roman catholics are born into it and then leave. I was just curious.
-----Original Message-----
From: rosetta lenton <whitewolfafc@btinternet. >com
Sender: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 14:05:37
To: <Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. >com
Reply-To: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [Witch_Essentials] mormons and stuff
hi all, been a lurker for some time but this got me writing... as an ex jehovahs
witness i'm amazed the mormons are so in tune with wicca stuff.
as far as the jws are concerned, if you are not one of them you are from the
devil--period.
25 years brainwashed with them taught me a life lesson i will never
forget--never give your power away,
Rosetta
- 2c.
-
Re: mormons and stuff
Posted by: "Laralee Boyd" laralee1955@gmail.com laraleeboyd
Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:39 pm (PDT)
Mormonism ? I was born into it. I am a descendant of the Utah Pioneers and
my ancestors were the leaders in Nauvoo during the early days of the church
- the leadership practiced polygamy. I suspect some of the women,
especially those from Scotland, were "witches". Laralee
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 9:00 AM, <airmidceltic@ymail.com > wrote:
>
>
> Were you born into it or converted. Most roman catholics are born into it
> and then leave. I was just curious.
> --------------------- ---------
> *From: *rosetta lenton <whitewolfafc@btinternet. >com
> *Sender: *Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
> *Date: *Mon, 25 Apr 2011 14:05:37 +0100 (BST)
> *To: *<Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. >com
> *ReplyTo: *Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
> *Subject: *[Witch_Essentials] mormons and stuff
>
>
>
> hi all, been a lurker for some time but this got me writing... as an ex
> jehovahs witness i'm amazed the mormons are so in tune with wicca stuff.
> as far as the jws are concerned, if you are not one of them you are from
> the devil--period.
> 25 years brainwashed with them taught me a life lesson i will never
> forget--never give your power away,
> *Rosetta *
>
>
>
- 2d.
-
Re: mormons and stuff
Posted by: "Max Jones" maxcrone@charter.net maxcrone
Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:21 am (PDT)
Hi! I am a lurker too. I agree with Rosetta "Never give your power away"
BB,
MaxCrone
----- Original Message -----
From: rosetta lenton
To: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 6:05 AM
Subject: [Witch_Essentials] mormons and stuff
hi all, been a lurker for some time but this got me writing... as an ex jehovahs witness i'm amazed the mormons are so in tune with wicca stuff.
as far as the jws are concerned, if you are not one of them you are from the devil--period.
25 years brainwashed with them taught me a life lesson i will never forget--never give your power away,
Rosetta
- 3a.
-
5 of Pents - The Right to Thrive.
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:01 am (PDT)
Hi All,
Today's Card is the 5 of Pents as we find it in the Dark Angel Tarot
<http://www.anar-mura.com/ > ; I expectgts/cdw/img/ cdw_24April2011. jpg
this will be our last look at the Dark Angel Tarot for a little while;
not because I am myself bored with it; I'm not; but because well it is
at the end of the day a rather dark vision; and not wholly in sync with
the spring blossoming around us just now; and as Pagans we should seek
harmony with those cycles around us. :)
Yesterday I pulled a card from the Gilded Tarot, just to serve as a
marker, but it has proven quite appropriate to my moment. My car needs a
little work, and it seems the Bill will be almost exactly what I have
set aside in my rainy day fund; (How do they know!@?)
But this fits the 5 of Pents after all, which all to often speaks to
those moments when we have been driven right down to the felt; and if BB
is not right down to the felt right now, certainly we are not in the
chips; not in terms of Health or Wealth.
So looking at the Stoic Image of the 5 of Pents we see in the Robin wood
<http://www.anar-mura.com/ > ; we find ourselvestgimg/rw/ 5pen.jpg
confronted by a Fierce little warrior; we do, his leg has been shot
away, and one eye, he supports himself with a staff and his clothes are
tattered rags; but he is clearly guarding the other figure. The message
is clear that even in a moment of such dire need as we find him, he has
the courage and the mind to recognize someone whose needs are greater
than his own, and to honor that need. Standing in the shadow of a
church, with it's connotations of Wealth, Power and Worldly Charity,
they do not find help in its gray expanse; they find charity in one an
other.
I think this is an important message and one appropriate for our time,
as our nation (we Americans at least) are wrangling over the terms of
our own social contract and what, if anything, we owe one an other as
fellow citizens of a great nation.
The Dark Angel Tarot is very Different, we see the Angels Grounded,
their wings useless to them, one laying on her back, the other barely
able to raise herself into an Arched pose, they reach heaven word in an
act of complete futility.
And while we can view this Drama as speaking to the impossibility of
ascension while one's concerns are grounded in the Material world; I
believe that thought is out of sync with the tradition of the Tarot, and
the Depth of this Deck; so I will propose another vision.
If we remember that the 6 of Pents, speaks to both Wealth and
Philanthropy <http://www.anar-mura.com/ > ; then wetgimg/rw/ pen_vi.jpg
must realize that in order to seek a higher vision, one must first have
sufficient wealth, to have some time and energy to pursue that higher
vision, and a person who spent most of the 90s working 2 jobs, often 7
days a week; I know exactly what I'm talking about here and the terrible
strain it put on my personal and spiritual life.
This card requires we pause for a moment to consider the concept of Sin;
most every religion has a concept of Sin, but I believe many Pagans are
less than comfortable with the idea, wishing to leave it behind them
with the Patriarchal Religions; but if our Spiritual Path is to provide
a moral compass then some things much simply be out of bounds.
Rape, Murder, Theft ... these things are out of Bounds, but why? For
myself Whitely Strieber in his brilliant work 'The Key' hits the nail
Exactly on the head.
Sin is Denying someone the right to Thrive.
The Addict Denies themselves the right to Thrive,
The Thief, the Murderer, the Rapist, Deny their Victims the right to
Thrive.
the Slaveholder Denies the Slave the Right to Thrive.
So too the Employer who denying the dignity of work, pays his wage
slaves pennies an hour; in maquiladoras around the world.
When we Deny a person the right to thrive, we deny them their
opportunity for ascension, it is a crime against the soul as well as the
body; but it is also a crime against ourselves; for no matter how high
we build our towers of Babel we will not find ascension standing on what
was built through the bondage of others.
So when we look at these angels, struggling to rise, we know they must
first rise to their feet before they can soar; and maybe just maybe our
own ascension lays in part in taking their hand, and pulling them up.
Brightest Blessings, BB.
- 3b.
-
Re: 5 of Pents - The Right to Thrive.
Posted by: "Jude DaShiell" jdashiel@shellworld.net
Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:05 pm (PDT)
Hmmm, I wonder could that little Warrior be the Egyptian God Bes?
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Blackbird wrote:
> Hi All,
> Today's Card is the 5 of Pents as we find it in the Dark Angel Tarot
> <http://www.anar-mura.com/ > ; I expectgts/cdw/img/ cdw_24April2011. jpg
> this will be our last look at the Dark Angel Tarot for a little while;
> not because I am myself bored with it; I'm not; but because well it is
> at the end of the day a rather dark vision; and not wholly in sync with
> the spring blossoming around us just now; and as Pagans we should seek
> harmony with those cycles around us. :)
>
>
> Yesterday I pulled a card from the Gilded Tarot, just to serve as a
> marker, but it has proven quite appropriate to my moment. My car needs a
> little work, and it seems the Bill will be almost exactly what I have
> set aside in my rainy day fund; (How do they know!@?)
>
> But this fits the 5 of Pents after all, which all to often speaks to
> those moments when we have been driven right down to the felt; and if BB
> is not right down to the felt right now, certainly we are not in the
> chips; not in terms of Health or Wealth.
>
> So looking at the Stoic Image of the 5 of Pents we see in the Robin wood
> <http://www.anar-mura.com/ > ; we find ourselvestgimg/rw/ 5pen.jpg
> confronted by a Fierce little warrior; we do, his leg has been shot
> away, and one eye, he supports himself with a staff and his clothes are
> tattered rags; but he is clearly guarding the other figure. The message
> is clear that even in a moment of such dire need as we find him, he has
> the courage and the mind to recognize someone whose needs are greater
> than his own, and to honor that need. Standing in the shadow of a
> church, with it's connotations of Wealth, Power and Worldly Charity,
> they do not find help in its gray expanse; they find charity in one an
> other.
>
> I think this is an important message and one appropriate for our time,
> as our nation (we Americans at least) are wrangling over the terms of
> our own social contract and what, if anything, we owe one an other as
> fellow citizens of a great nation.
>
> The Dark Angel Tarot is very Different, we see the Angels Grounded,
> their wings useless to them, one laying on her back, the other barely
> able to raise herself into an Arched pose, they reach heaven word in an
> act of complete futility.
>
> And while we can view this Drama as speaking to the impossibility of
> ascension while one's concerns are grounded in the Material world; I
> believe that thought is out of sync with the tradition of the Tarot, and
> the Depth of this Deck; so I will propose another vision.
>
> If we remember that the 6 of Pents, speaks to both Wealth and
> Philanthropy <http://www.anar-mura.com/ > ; then wetgimg/rw/ pen_vi.jpg
> must realize that in order to seek a higher vision, one must first have
> sufficient wealth, to have some time and energy to pursue that higher
> vision, and a person who spent most of the 90s working 2 jobs, often 7
> days a week; I know exactly what I'm talking about here and the terrible
> strain it put on my personal and spiritual life.
>
> This card requires we pause for a moment to consider the concept of Sin;
> most every religion has a concept of Sin, but I believe many Pagans are
> less than comfortable with the idea, wishing to leave it behind them
> with the Patriarchal Religions; but if our Spiritual Path is to provide
> a moral compass then some things much simply be out of bounds.
>
> Rape, Murder, Theft ... these things are out of Bounds, but why? For
> myself Whitely Strieber in his brilliant work 'The Key' hits the nail
> Exactly on the head.
>
> Sin is Denying someone the right to Thrive.
>
> The Addict Denies themselves the right to Thrive,
> The Thief, the Murderer, the Rapist, Deny their Victims the right to
> Thrive.
> the Slaveholder Denies the Slave the Right to Thrive.
> So too the Employer who denying the dignity of work, pays his wage
> slaves pennies an hour; in maquiladoras around the world.
>
> When we Deny a person the right to thrive, we deny them their
> opportunity for ascension, it is a crime against the soul as well as the
> body; but it is also a crime against ourselves; for no matter how high
> we build our towers of Babel we will not find ascension standing on what
> was built through the bondage of others.
>
> So when we look at these angels, struggling to rise, we know they must
> first rise to their feet before they can soar; and maybe just maybe our
> own ascension lays in part in taking their hand, and pulling them up.
>
> Brightest Blessings, BB.
>
>
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