Witch_Essentials

Messages In This Digest (4 Messages)

1a.: Her Invitation. From: Blackbird
1b.: Re: Her Invitation. From: gaia_d

2a.: File - Do NOT Send Invitations to other Groups.txt From: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups.com

3.1.: File - Warning about Grouply.txt From: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups.com

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1a.: Her Invitation.

Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61

Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:43 am (PST)

Hi All, I received this post this morning directly from Grandma Owl,
for Moderation before posting to our group. She was not sure if the
subject was still current, or if the piece need be broken down to
smaller posts. IMHO its perfect as is; its both thoughtful and thought
provoking and I believe it's well worth your time. BB.

I am the Cup which holds Eternity. All other Cups Have their
Source in Me. The Goddess Innana.
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Blackbird

It has been a long time. I haven't been active on yahoo groups for
quite a long time, but I do maintain membership and read the posts now
and again. I just finished this thread, and have read with interest
your messages.

I was very touched to see that you remembered me and my first forays
into these pagan groups, and my confusion at the time when told I
wasn't Wiccan. That was probably a couple years ago, and I have
continued to learn, research and grow during that time.

Now, as to who can be Wicca - the traditional lineage, initiatory vs.
solitary debate. I really don't want to get involved in this debate
again and am only adding my opinions here because of your long discourse
on behalf of the baby witches or newbies, and that you mentioned me by
name.

So, I will make some observations on the subject of `Who is a
Wiccan', or `Must one be initiated by a lineaged coven to be
Wiccan?" These are my personal observations/opinions developed from
my research and experience, and many will disagree.

You had stated something along the lines that newbies had been invited
into the Wiccan community by many popular and even some Wiccan Elder
authors. Those first books one usually reads and are often recommended
by Wiccans who hold the lineaged and initiated line. Yes, these authors
wrote of the solitary practitioner and self-dedication. Therefore,
newbies often identify themselves as Solitary Wiccans, as did I.
However, primarily through Gaia and Rowen Moonstone I began to
understand their vehement held position and agree with many of their
arguments.

Most of my agreements are excellently described in an article by Mike
Nichols about Old Guard Paganism. He describes how the Pagan/Wiccan
Elders had such difficulty finding information on the craft and in
finding others who help similar beliefs. He describes how much effort
and dedication was needed to learn and pursue one's path. Years of
study to become initiated. More or less, how difficult it was then and
the effort required compared to how easy it is now, and the indignity of
how little respect these Elders receive from the new pagan community.
In regards to Wicca, I am sure most of us have run across some parody of
the High Priestress.

It must be so frustrating for an Elder to have a `newbie' argue
with them about what Wicca is. And I would have to agree that having
read a few books, some newbies do believe themselves experts on Wicca
and will not stop, listen and learn from those more experienced and
knowledgably, and who willingly share that knowledge. When I was more
active on the boards, I often had knee-jerk reactions to other members
who can be quite confrontational and can appear at first reading as
terribly arrogant. I soon learned to give myself time and try to
understand their positions. For myself, I am happy to learn from
reputable teachers, and I count you as one, and glad of the work our
Elders have done for the pagan community.

From another group, I have copied their definition of Wicca: Wicca is a
lineaged, training required, initiatory mystery tradition, with its
inner craft work always being oath bound.

By lineaged, one usually means the tradition can be traced back to
Gerald Gardner. In the last decades, there have been many Wicca
traditions created that have no relation to Gardner: Corrilian, Church
of Wicca, Feary, Circle Sanctuary, Reclaiming to name a few, and some of
these are initiatory groups (I think, I working from memory and could
have some facts confused). Anyway, this can become very confusing to a
newbie, and is the component that holds the least weight in this debate,
IMHO. No doubt some traditions can trace back a lineage to Gardner, but
I believe most purported lineages are dubious at best. Frankly, I am
not concerned with the lineaged part at all.

The initiatory part is more complex. Many good arguments exist that
this is the best way to learn Wicca and I would agree if one is ever
allowed this opportunity with a respectable group and for myriad reasons
many of us will not have this opportunity. Many skills are difficult to
teach oneself. Training is imperative. A few books won't do it.
There are benefits to being a solitary. Quoting Mike Nichols from that
article: "(solitaries)studied and practiced the Craft in relative
isolation, they developed strong individual concepts about it, an inner
sense of theology, and the ability to use ritual and magic effectively
alone." However, he and many others have pointed out how dangerous
it is for an untrained newbie to practice magic without long-term and
trustworthy training. And a solitary can get this information through
media, print and study group training. Solitaries may be at a
disadvantage when compared to the focused energy of a group or coven,
but again my magic works - effectively alone!

However, the most often cited reason is that the initiation is a
transformative event and that the oath bound material holds secrets that
we who rely on publicly printed material will never have access to.

The invitation comes from Her. Your story of the discovery of paganism
must be so familiar to many of us, certainly for me. For many of us our
invitation and first steps of learning a pagan path are transformative.
Transformation can come in a moment - an epiphany of Oh, I get it now, I
understand, and can continue for years changing our life choices and our
life styles. It's a deeper and sometimes new understanding of
life's mysteries and our journey into understanding occult
mysteries. As for the oath bound material, how can I miss something
I've never had? An initated Wiccan may tell me I am not a Wiccan
for many of the reason listed above, but does one have the hubris to
tell me my relation to the Lord and Lady is lacking because I
haven't had the oath bound teachings? That their relationship to
deity is better because they have oath bound secrets and have been
initiated into a tradition. I think not. No one can measure
another's relationship to the Lord and Lady based on this criteria.

In fact, this relationship can never be measured by any means - other
than by a person's own personal relationship, the experience of
Deity, and how it is transforming our lives - by the signs and messages
Deity gives us - and sometimes by the blessing of hearing their voice.
My relationship is deeply satisfying, transformative and real.

Of course, this is not the root of the debate. I don't believe any
traditional Wiccan would question my relationship with the Lord and Lady
- they would just state that by the definition of Wicca - I am not. The
debate is who is and has a right to call themselves Wiccan. It goes
back to your description of how we identify ourselves. As I meet more
and more pagans, they are always interested in my path, they usually
want more clarification of my path than just stating I am a pagan, as
pagan is an umbrella term signifying many traditions and paths. As
witch and wiccan are no longer interchangeable terms, I am not just a
witch because by experience with Deity is a religion. Although I have
learned much from Celtic Reconstructionist and have thoroughly begun to
research Celtic Mythology - I am not a CR because my experience with my
Deity is more fluid, open wide to poetry, mystery and romance. I truly
follow a Wiccan and Celtic influenced path.

But am I Wiccan? Person to person, never once when I have answered
Wiccan to another's question of my path has anyone ever asked if I
am lineaged, initiatory Wiccan. I've only met two Wiccan High
Priestress, but neither asked. It is only on Yahoo groups that I have
received any problems.

As you said:

The invitation is from Her. The invitation has been put forth from
respected Wiccan authors. Paganism is one of the fastest growing
religions in the U.S. I would surmise that many, if not most, of that
group would identify themselves as Solitary Wiccans without the benefit
of initiation in a lineaged tradition.

You know, I read a lot of paranormal romances. In one of my favorite
series, the Merry Gentry fey novels by Laurell Hamilton, reading the
book Swallowing Darkness (I believe) lead me to make a parallel
observation following the storyline of the book, - a very controversial
observation. Succinctly as I can, the Goddess is disappointed in how
the Sidhe have reacted to her returning gifts. She tells Merry to
return to L.A to live among the mortals. In fact, the Goddess states
that she will begin to bestow her gifts on the humans who may be more
grateful. Merry muses that it is time for the Sidhe to live and
interact among the humans, rather than hide or `fade' in their
hollow hills.

Gerald Gardner (and the beautiful poetry of Dorienne Valientine) may
well have been the catalyst that the Goddess used to become more active
among humans. At that time period and in following decades, oaths of
secrecy to protect the initiates and their teachings were crucial for
their protection - a lineaged, training required, initiatory mystery
tradition, with its inner craft work always being oath bound - how else
to protect her hidden children - perfect trust. How else were they to
learn of her mysteries or rituals? There were very few books, and they
did not have the technology we do today.

However, as religious tolerance grew, that need for secrecy has
lessened her invitation has increased. Many answer her call only to find
they are not ready, cannot except the responsibilities of learning and
practice, so do not receive the transformative experiences. But many of
us do and we do not have to remain hidden, but can practice freely,
joyfully and openly and join others in public festivals, Sabbats,
Esbats, etc. As I said, a very controversial observation. Traditional
Wiccans will tell me I have totally misunderstood and misrepresented
their definition of Wicca. No, I do understand the traditional
definition, but this is a new way of looking at it. A new way for the
new (neo) Wiccans that have accepted her invitation by way of a solitary
practice and experience of a religion called Wicca.

Blessings, GM Owl

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Messages in this topic (2)
1b.: Re: Her Invitation.

Posted by: "gaia_d" Gaia_D@yahoo.com gaia_d

Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:23 am (PST)

GRANDMOTHER OWL, PREVIOUSLY:

I was very touched to see that you remembered me and my first forays
into these pagan groups, and my confusion at the time when told I
wasn't Wiccan. That was probably a couple years ago, and I have
continued to learn, research and grow during that time.

GAIA-:

Hello GrandMother Owl ! –

I'm so glad you've "returned" to us; we always
appreciated your sharing of experience and perspectives.

GMO:

Now, as to who can be Wicca - the traditional lineage, initiatory vs.
solitary debate. I really don't want to get involved in this debate
again and am only adding my opinions here because of your long discourse
on behalf of the baby witches or newbies, and that you mentioned me by
name.

GAIA:

I'd hope that everyone who desired, would feel welcome to
respond….

And "disagreement(s)" -- even strong ones – are fine, as
long as they are carried on respectfully <*smile*>.

In this reply, my intention is just to make some clarifying comments,
that i hope will be helpful to anyone reading --

GMO:

You had stated something along the lines that newbies had been invited
into the Wiccan community by many popular and even some Wiccan Elder
authors. Those first books one usually reads and are often recommended
by Wiccans who hold the lineaged and initiated line. Yes, these authors
wrote of the solitary practitioner and self-dedication. Therefore,
newbies often identify themselves as Solitary Wiccans, as did I.
However, primarily through Gaia and Rowen Moonstone I began to
understand their vehement held position and agree with many of their
arguments.

Most of my agreements are excellently described in an article by Mike
Nichols about Old Guard Paganism.

GAIA:

I'd encourage everyone to familiarize themselves with this great
article – I'll upload it following this reply, but meanwhile,
here's a link to it:

OLD GUARD PAGANISM:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Witch_Essentials/message/15184
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Witch_Essentials/message/15184>

GMO:

He describes how the Pagan/Wiccan Elders had such difficulty finding
information on the craft and in finding others who help similar beliefs.
He describes how much effort and dedication was needed to learn and
pursue one's path. Years of study to become initiated. More or
less, how difficult it was then and the effort required compared to how
easy it is now, and the indignity of how little respect these Elders
receive from the new pagan community. In regards to Wicca, I am sure
most of us have run across some parody of the High Priestress.

It must be so frustrating for an Elder to have a `newbie' argue
with them about what Wicca is.

GAIA:

Yes, that can be a very frustrating experience – especially when
they have assumptions or speculations that are based on erroneous or
misunderstood "information" – often obtained from other
beginners.

But it's certainly not the only reason why I think it's
important to learn Wicca through good, experienced teachers –
preferably High Priest or High Priestess.

(NOTE: I know you and many others here are familiar with these; I
hope you'll all forgive me for digressing a bit to (once more) lay
out some of those reasons, for those who may be new or not familiar with
them) -- Here are just a few:

First, (Traditional) Wicca is (as you note later on) "a lineaged,
training required, initiatory mystery tradition, with its inner craft
work always being oath bound."

Even now, only the most superficial, general aspects of Wiccan principle
and practice are available publically, in books or on websites. This
is (one reason among several) why Wicca is referred to as a
"Mystery" Path/ Tradition. Many of those Mysteries cannot be
described in words; and generally, only one who is already familiar with
them can help lead a Seeker/ Student through the experiences that
prepare them to receive (and comprehend and appreciate) those Mysteries
– as well as cope with the consequences!

Another reason has to do with (as you mentioned) the very real issues
– and even (potential) dangers – involved with practicing
ritual, divination (or other psychic activities) and magick, with little
preparation or training.

Still other problems can occur when one takes on a study (and
activities) of metaphysics without accompanying self-discovery and
self-discipline – which can be exceptionally difficult to do when
studying/ practicing as a Solitary.

I have elsewhere discussed the fact that we all have an internal
"Shadow" which can cause us problems – (See "Magick,
Metaphysics & Shadow" here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BeginningWicca/message/19747
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BeginningWicca/message/19747> )

Nearly every metaphysical system has (at some point) a way designed
within it, to lead the Seeker to confront and work through this
"Shadow". This is crucial work for anyone wanting to pursue a
metaphysical path -- But again, it's extremely difficult (if not
impossible) to do by oneself as a Solitary, since the Shadow is by
definition, a part of ourselves that we hide from ourselves.

Another issue related to the problem of solitary study, involves missing
so much– As a beginner, how can you judge which books or other
resources are reliable, and which are not? How can you determine what
to study, when -- what is of "primary importance" versus what
can (or even should) be left until later?

I studied as a Solitary out of necessity when I began – over 30
years ago, long before you could walk into a bookstore and find rows
upon rows of Pagan books. For over five years, I read (intensively,
obsessively!) everything I could get my hands on – but when I
finally had the chance to meet and learn from a good teacher, I was
amazed to discover that there were huge "holes" in my knowledge
and experience: everything from the embarrassing mis-pronunciation of
many Sabbat titles, to some of the most important Wiccan rituals that
I'd never seen or even heard of!

And speaking of those rituals, another good reason for learning within a
Coven is that many of the most important, beautiful and powerful rituals
of Wicca cannot really be experienced as a Solitary – they need to
be experienced within a Group – which is one of the reasons why
Wicca was originally designed to be learned and practiced within the
context of a Coven. As High Priest and author Sam Wagar says in his
article, "Wiccan Theology and Practice" --

"But, Wicca is, after all, an Initiatory Mystery Religion of Clergy
worshipping in small closed groups, and using techniques of ecstatic
trance and prophetic revelation to raise energy and work magick….

…. Our intention is to produce a religion of prophets, with direct
access to the Gods, using symbols, including images and including our
beliefs, as tools…..

So, Wicca is an elite religion, which most people are not suited to.
Belief is not enough, it takes Talent and the capacity to experience
certain things and to go through a process of personal transformation,
Initiation, before one can practice it.

It also is not a solo path, but one where the most profound experiences
are the result of group efforts. The capacity of a group of trained
people to focus their
energy magickally, the development and nurturance of an egregore, the
strength of trance induction done by experienced people, the
sophistication of an informed discussion of the Gods and the direct
revelation from the Gods through possession and inspiration trance, the
aesthetic pleasures of well-constructed and performed ritual, for these
and other reasons the coven form is highly preferable.

People who are unwilling or unable to do the work are not clergy people
and therefore are not candidates for Wicca. They may believe what
Wiccans do, but Wicca is not principally about belief. These people are
Pagans, and they might, some of them, be leaders in Pagan groups and
activities. They are not, however, Wiccan clergy.

This leads me to briefly discuss public roles for Wiccans. We are, by
the definition offered above, clergy, which means that our ability to
realize ourselves individually and spiritually is tied into religious
service to the broader Pagan community and to the broader human
community.

Wiccans are clergy, servants of the divine as we understand it, which is
expressed in and through other people, through social institutions like
the government, families and universities, as much as through the
natural world, through the joys and pleasures of life like sex, dancing
and singing, marriage as much as through loss and disappointment. We
must, it seems to me, make ourselves available to Pagans for the
performance of rites of passage, to teach and to celebrate and mourn
together in the presence of the Gods. But we must also participate as
citizens in the larger social and political discourse."

(End quoted material.)

(Sam Wagar, "Wiccan Theology and Practice", © Samuel Wagar,
2008, All rights Reserved; Used by permission. See:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BeginningWicca/message/31751
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BeginningWicca/message/31751>

But this last point is one that few – even "intermediate"
students -- seem to realize / remember: Wicca is a religion of CLERGY
– A Wiccan is initiated "Priest/ess and Witch" – so
Wiccans are Priests and Priestesses to the Gods and Goddesses –
which is perhaps the major reason why solitary practice is just not
consistent with basic Wiccan principles.

It's true that there are some groups experimenting with a new
"Congregational" aspect: an "Inner Core" of initiated
Priests and Priestesses who function as a Coven and celebrate the Esbats
and Sabbats; and an "Outer Court" of those who may self-identify
as "Solitaries" or "Neo-Wiccans", but wish to celebrate
at least some of the major Sabbats with a larger group. It's hard
to say at this point, whether this will become an acceptable, popular
alternative for many.

These are just a few of the major reasons why I feel it's important
for anyone who wishes to learn Wicca, to study with a good, experienced
High Priest/ess, and preferably within a good Coven.

GMO:

Anyway, this can become very confusing to a newbie, and is the component
that holds the least weight in this debate, IMHO. No doubt some
traditions can trace back a lineage to Gardner, but I believe most
purported lineages are dubious at best. Frankly, I am not concerned
with the lineaged part at all.

GAIA:

A major reason (imo) why this element of Lineage is considered
important, may be because part of the (Third Degree) Initiation/
Ordination Ritual involves a literal "endowment" or bequest of
Wiccan spiritual power and authority, from and through one's High
Priest/ess –

And I have to say that i may not have considered this very important,
until I actually experienced it;

-- Believe me, it was like being hit with the proverbial "ton of
bricks" <*smile*>.

I'd have to do some more reading and thinking about the rest of your
Message, before i could respond to it -- And i would like to encourage
anyone else who would like to respond, as well.

Again, thanks so much for it -- And again, we're so glad you've returned
to us, and hope to see LOTS more of you here!

Blessed Be -

~Gaia

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2a.: File - Do NOT Send Invitations to other Groups.txt

Posted by: "Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups.com" Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups.com

Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:48 am (PST)

On Sending our Members "Invitations" to Other Groups:

PLEASE NOTE:

It is against the rules of many Groups to use their membership lists to "mine" names for other Groups -- including "social networking" Groups -- and this includes Witch Essentials.

You would be wise to ASK PERMISSION of Group Owners or Moderators, BEFORE sending any "invitations" to other groups, to them or their members.

Sincerely -
~Gaia, Group Moderator

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3.1.: File - Warning about Grouply.txt

Posted by: "Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups.com" Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups.com

Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:48 am (PST)

Once more, please be reminded that Yahoo FORBIDS ITS MEMBERS to belong to "Grouply":

Warning about Grouply.Com

You will not be allowed to join this group with a 'grouply' email
account.

This is a new site which advertises they can make accessing your
groups faster and easier. Most of us are too seasoned to fall for
something like this, but I am posting this as CYA.

This is what happens when you join:

"First, when a member joins, it automatically changes their primary
email address for the groups, giveing them a @grouply.com extension.
This is being done unaware to those who are joining.

Secondly, members who join the grouply website are having to give
their member ID and password. This opens up a security issue for
those members.

Thirdly, once a member joins grouply, it opens access to the files
and posts of each group to the grouply website. Grouply staff can
then access these files. If they get hacked, then it opens the doors
to the groups getting hacked as well. It has also been reported that
it's generating a lot of spam already."

In other words, information from a group can be made accessable to
everyone, and massive amounts of spam with your email address can be
generated.

The following information tells you the steps which needed to be taken
if someone has joined Grouply.com

IDENTIFY THEFT AT GROUPLY.COM

There is a message going out to different Yahoo Groups advertising
and suggesting that you join a new group called GROUPLY. This group
claims to help manage all your Yahoo groups and you will get a
summary, at the end of the day, telling you what is going on in all
your groups.

IF YOU JOIN THIS GROUP, they use your Yahoo ID and password to
post "mass mailings" (can be junk, can be porno) and send them to
anyone, and since it's YOUR ID they are using, others will think it
is coming from you.

For instance, you could get an email CLAIMING that it came
from "emagic2" Yahoo group and it really is not from this group. I
could get an email, with this mass mailing, claiming it came from me,
and it wouldn't have been from me.

Again, IF YOU HAVE JOINED THIS GROUP called "GROUPLY" IMMEDIATELY
leave Grouply. Then go into your account at:
http://groups. yahoo.com/ mygroups and change your password. Some
groups have posted that this will help. Unsubbing from that group
won't make a difference (but I think you will want to) so change your
Yahoo Password.

By joining this group you have also exposed all your groups, group
members and group leaders to hacking of their emails and group
information.

Because of this problem, all members with a email grouply.com are
being removed from the affected groups. This is the only way to
protect all the members. This is how Identity theft gets going.
They now have your real email, your yahoo emails, any emails listed
in your yahoo group and can mail as you in and out of the yahoo
groups.

I hope you understand what is happening and will take precautions to
protect your Yahoo ID.

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