Messages In This Digest (8 Messages)
- 1a.
- Re: Hello, I am new and disoriented :) From: Jude DaShiell
- 1b.
- Re: Hello, I am new and disoriented :) From: inkdreamer
- 1c.
- Re: Hello, I am new and disoriented :) From: allan_wells1963@yahoo.com
- 2.
- What is Wicca 2-1 The Invitation Comes from here. From: Blackbird
- 3.
- Whats is Wicca 2-2 Buckland. From: Blackbird
- 4.
- What is Wicca 2-3 Elities. From: Blackbird
- 5.
- What is Wicca 2-1 The Invitation comes from Her. From: Blackbird
- 6a.
- Re: Dreaming of the deceased From: Leslie B
Messages
- 1a.
-
Re: Hello, I am new and disoriented :)
Posted by: "Jude DaShiell" jdashiel@shellworld.net
Mon Nov 8, 2010 8:54 am (PST)
With tarot one might understand all that's shown is 2d but just because
that's all that's shown doesn't necessarily mean that that's all that's
to be seen. If your psychic abilities go to the visual, one of these
times take a look at tarot cards and ask what's in the middle and far
distance and oh by the way what's behind me? That ought to make things
more interesting.
On Sat, 6 Nov 2010, melissa wrote:
>
>
> --- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "Ana" <anagallaway@com ...> wrote:
>>
>> My name is Ana. I am new here. I don't know what category I fall into, I think I am psychic,and/or sensitive. I have met 2 friends who are psychic, and help me once in a while to figure this out.
>> I play games (excersises) with one of them just trying to figure out what I can do. It's fun, but our schedules don't match sometimes.
>> I would love to learn more, and meet more friends.
>> I staretd doing psychic readings last year, and each time I am amazed. I don't know how this works, but it does.
>> I tried to read Tarot, but it exasperates me. It is too slow for me, and too 2-D. I get 3-D faster answers somehow.
>> I don't know how to use my abilities, and I don't yet know what I can do. So I am exploring.
>> I am married to a wonderful guy. We have 3.5 cats (one refuses to come inside now, one tiny dog, a rat, a hamster and fish. We both love animals.
>> My husband is open minded. He also gets premonitions, we don't know how or from where. And he has healed my pain a couple of times with his hand, he was just kidding, but it worked. :)
>> I work at home as an interpreter
>>
> hello my name Is melissa
> i just wanted to say your message sounds interesting. how neat that both of you have premonitions. i,m very interested in the psyhic matters I have been for quite sometime, i have had a couple of dreams and what I dreamt happened the next day. but don,t know what that means.A few years ago my dad passed away, i hope he,s okay where he is at. but beside that point the night he had some kind of attack, i dreamt about it and some woman in my dream was showing me him and that it was time soon. cuz i asked her in it if he was going to die. well anyway i enjoyed your post. i don,t think i,m gifted in anyway but it would neat if i was. take care
>
>
>
> --------------------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
- 1b.
-
Re: Hello, I am new and disoriented :)
Posted by: "inkdreamer" me@secretinker.com springfieldwitchling
Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:14 am (PST)
Hi Ana,
You are incredibly lucky to have a man with healing hands. That's
awesome. I am just a bit jealous.
Have you read any books to further develop your psychic ability?
If by sensitive you mean that you pick up the emotions of others
then you are empathic.
Inkdreamer
- 1c.
-
Re: Hello, I am new and disoriented :)
Posted by: "allan_wells1963@yahoo.com" allan_wells1963@yahoo.com allan_wells1963
Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:23 am (PST)
I will try
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel
-----Original Message-----
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@shellworld.net >
Sender: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 23:29:41
To: <Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. >com
Reply-To: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [Witch_Essentials] Re: Hello, I am new and disoriented :)
With tarot one might understand all that's shown is 2d but just because
that's all that's shown doesn't necessarily mean that that's all that's
to be seen. If your psychic abilities go to the visual, one of these
times take a look at tarot cards and ask what's in the middle and far
distance and oh by the way what's behind me? That ought to make things
more interesting.
On Sat, 6 Nov 2010, melissa wrote:
>
>
> --- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "Ana" <anagallaway@com ...> wrote:
>>
>> My name is Ana. I am new here. I don't know what category I fall into, I think I am psychic,and/or sensitive. I have met 2 friends who are psychic, and help me once in a while to figure this out.
>> I play games (excersises) with one of them just trying to figure out what I can do. It's fun, but our schedules don't match sometimes.
>> I would love to learn more, and meet more friends.
>> I staretd doing psychic readings last year, and each time I am amazed. I don't know how this works, but it does.
>> I tried to read Tarot, but it exasperates me. It is too slow for me, and too 2-D. I get 3-D faster answers somehow.
>> I don't know how to use my abilities, and I don't yet know what I can do. So I am exploring.
>> I am married to a wonderful guy. We have 3.5 cats (one refuses to come inside now, one tiny dog, a rat, a hamster and fish. We both love animals.
>> My husband is open minded. He also gets premonitions, we don't know how or from where. And he has healed my pain a couple of times with his hand, he was just kidding, but it worked. :)
>> I work at home as an interpreter
>>
> hello my name Is melissa
> i just wanted to say your message sounds interesting. how neat that both of you have premonitions. i,m very interested in the psyhic matters I have been for quite sometime, i have had a couple of dreams and what I dreamt happened the next day. but don,t know what that means.A few years ago my dad passed away, i hope he,s okay where he is at. but beside that point the night he had some kind of attack, i dreamt about it and some woman in my dream was showing me him and that it was time soon. cuz i asked her in it if he was going to die. well anyway i enjoyed your post. i don,t think i,m gifted in anyway but it would neat if i was. take care
>
>
>
> --------------------- --------- ------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
- 2.
-
What is Wicca 2-1 The Invitation Comes from here.
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:31 am (PST)
I have broken my reply to Gaia into three posts which will make most
sense read in the order they are intended.
What are We,
If a person asked what what you are ...
An American is most likely to reply, I'm an Architect, a Crane Operator,
a Technician, or a Cab Driver. As a nation our primary and expected
identification is with what we do for a living.
If you asked that Question 30 years ago in Ireland you would find; as my
step father discovered; the answer is more, A Poet, a Painter, a
Photographer, a Chess Player; and the Irishman would identify himself
not by what he did for a living, but by his great passion in life. I
don't know if that still true today, I don't know if we have corrupted
them, but I hope this remains true.
If you asked me that Question 30 years ago ... I might have told you I
as a Draughtsman, (a person who draws vs. A painter say.) I might have
said a Soldier, I was just getting into the Army, ... but I would not
have said ....
Pagan,
but today my primary Identification, who and what I am is Pagan; my art,
my story telling, my whole creative life is focused on expressing that
Paganism. My Photography is primarily of and about nature, it is about
more fully experiencing that Paganism, that is why I have spent the last
week pouring what creative energy I have had available admit life's
other Demands, and they have been demands; into this Question, because I
consider this a very important Question and I know many of you do as
well, even if you only silently read this board, and seldom raise your
voice in the room.
I've also been conversing about this thread with 'Ghost' who has become
a good bit more passionate about the subject than I have been myself;
and I have decided to break my reply into two pieces, this one is a bit
of personal history; I hope it is some value to other members who are
wresting with the Question, what am I, what do I call myself. The other
reply which will be posted simultaneously to this one, will address
briefly the history of this Question; for this is a Question that Wicca
has Wrestled with for 30 years; and While I respect Gala's opinion on
this issue, I feel someone must point out, it is not, and has not been
the only opinion for quite some time, not since Raymond Buckland first
published The Tree, in 1974; and if you embrace Mr. Buckland's point of
view, you will not be alone or out of necessity wrong, nor unwelcome
here, you will have simply taken another path towards the Goddess.
30 years ago as a young Man I found a Random copy of Z. Budapest's
Newsletter Themis laying around on campus; front and Center was this
Magnificent vision of a Horned Goddess and Crone, and I picked up that
news letter to copy that image, but in the coming days I found myself
intrigued with the text. This was my very first contact with the Modern
Pagan movement, it was as if finding a door, that led to where you knew
you wanted to go ... but that door was barred against you, because the
Newsletter was Dianic and did not accept subscriptions from Men; and
despite the temptation to do so; I refrained from Subscribing under a
false name; Partly out of genuine integrity, and partly because my
brothers would have given me infinite grief if they found out.
Still Zen will always be important to me, because she pointed the way,
she said to me it was not simply ridiculous or flat-out crazy to think
of oneself as Pagan. Here was a News Letter, written by a obviously
bright articulate, passionate and thoughtful Modern Pagan; ...
I was telling Ghost this story the other day, and she said, "Don't you
think she put it there for you to find."
"Zen?"
"No the Goddess."
And, you know, I think she did; Ghost has said this several times in the
last few days as we have discussed this reply.
"The Invitation comes from Her."
and it's got me thinking, I've always felt that to an extent, always
felt Nan offered me this path, not once but twice at least; once when I
happened upon Zen's News Letter, again years later after slogging
mindlessly through a decade of working two jobs, with no energy, no
hope, and no time for anything but more work when I happened upon the
Gendron Tarot; both times presenting me with Images of very powerful
Goddesses I simply wanted to Draw when I picked that invitation up, with
no idea what I would find beyond, behind those images.
And it's never made sense to me, I am in no way special; and I can't
imagine why she would bother; but what I have been blind to is, My
invitation comes from her, and yours, and your friends, and your
mothers; they all come from her; as she offers all her children with
eyes to see, or ears to hear an invitation to return to her.
Mine is in no way, better, more special, more sacred or meaningful than
yours ... Its just mine thats all.
A year or so ago when this subject came up previously, I remember the
Tremendous Distress expressed by "Grandmother Owl" who had her own
Gnostic Experience of the Goddess years ago, and had sense grown in her
craft, and come to think of herself as Wiccan, but did not at all fit
the Definition of Wiccan Gala is putting forth here, I remember that
Trama because I empathized with it deeply myself.
Wicca is faced with this challenge now, Deciding what you are, very
often involves deciding who you are not, and while closing those doors
will not necessarily harm those with-in and those with-out; it can be
quite a blow to those on the threshold to have the door slammed in their
face.
As a Pagan, who knows whatever 'Wicca' decides in the end, it will
affect the entire Neo-Pagan movement, I sincerely hope that that
decision will be more inclusive not less, more diverse not less, and
empathic not less. I also hope that Wicca as a body will find the wisdom
to remember, the Invitation does not come for Gardener, nor Gaia, nor
Grandmother Owl, nor me
The Invitation comes from Her.
Brightest Blessings, BB.
- 3.
-
Whats is Wicca 2-2 Buckland.
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:42 am (PST)
Hi All,
I would like to make a couple of points clear at the outset; 1st as I've
said before I've always considered myself Pagan not Wiccan, and two I
personally don't recommend to anyone who has a better choice that they
Initiate themselves in the craft; if they can pursue that goal
otherwise; but in my first reply I noted;
Gaia Said; "one does not *become* Wiccan by reading, or just "claiming"
to be Wiccan -- That's a common misunderstanding and error among many
beginners."
to Which I replied that one cannot blame 'Beginners' for considering
themselves Wiccan, when the invitation to consider themselves Wiccan has
been presented to them by persons of stature in the Wiccan Community,
Para phrasing here, persons such as Raymond Buckland, Scott Cunningham,
Janet Farrar, and Starhawk among others. We will return to them shortly,
My point here today is not to Debunk Gaia's position; but I feel that
for the benefit of the many "Baby Witches" drawn to this group that
Gaia's position is but one side of an Argument that has been going on
for 30 years, that if you find yourself on the other side of that
argument your position is not inherently wrong, and has been propounded
and expanded by persons of great stature in Wicca and in the Larger Neo
Pagan Community. Much of what follows will speak to that Question.
So we return to the thought, that one cannot blame 'Beginners' for
considering themselves Wiccan, when the invitation to consider
themselves Wiccan has been presented to them by persons of stature in
the Wiccan Community, Para phrasing here, persons such as Raymond
Buckland, Scott Cunningham, Janet Farrar, and Starhawk among other
important and founding voices in Wicca and the Larger Neo-Pagan
Movement. None of whom would say you can become a Wiccan by simply
reading but all of whom have provided manuals for study, performing
Ritual, and gathering unto yourself the Experience that is at the Heart
of any Mystery Tradition.
Now in the Spiral Dance,
Starhawk clearly sees herself as a Witch, and the book is clearly a
guide to Self Initiation into Witchcraft as a religion. Which is what
Wicca sees itself as; it's founding Document was not Wicce Today, it was
Witchcraft Today, although to my mind the Ambiguity is minimal, the
ambiguity is there, so I will set aside the Spiral Dance for now.
The Holy Book of Woman's Mysteries,
The Founding Document of Dianic Wicca also clearly speaks to a self
initiated path, indeed in the very introduction to the book "How this
book was Born" Z. recounts the story of two ex-nuns, Laura and Beach,
who embarked on the adventure of following the path of the Goddess with
a precious and rare copy of a book in their hands. This book was called
The Feminist Book of Light and Shadows.; ... I'm telling you this story
because these two women were instrumental in our continuing to publish
The Feminist Book of Light and Shadows, which later became The Holy Book
of Women's Mysteries. They wrote us a letter of such vivid detail that
we realized that the Hunger for this information was greater than we had
thought. We needed to raise funds, turn the pamphlet into a more
permanent form and keep it in print. So clearly Dianic Wicca from the
very beginning embraced self initiation, and sought ways to Empower
Women to Seek the Goddess for themselves through Dianic Wicca.
But Dianic Wicca does not trace it's Lineage back to Gardener, but to a
Hungarian Fam-Trad via the connection of Z. Mother, Masika Szilagyi; and
is Dianic by Definition, the God is seen as clearly secondary, and has
more of the Relationship of a Dumuzi to Innana, than of a Woden to Frig,
so Dianic Wicca is not Wicca by Gaia's definition on two separate
counts, so we will set aside Dianic Wicca and the Holy Book of Woman's
Mysteries for now.
While I do believe that Janet Farrar in the Witches Bible provides a
path to Self Initiation, I was not able to lay my hands on a copy to
Quote, so for the moment we will assume I am mistaken and set aside that
volume as well. And Scott Cunningham, well he has been discussed in
group before and the opinion expressed if he was alive today he would
not have published the works describing a path to Self Initiation he
laid down in the 80's. So we will lay that point of argument aside.
but now we come to the real heart of the matter.
Raymond Buckland ...
Who was, a personal Acquaintance of Gardeners, initiated into Gardnerian
Wicca by 'His Highpriestess' Lady Olwen, and who started the first
Gardnerian coven in the America's at Gardeners personal request in the
1960's. For a lineaged tradition such as Gardnerian Wicca, there can be
few persons of greater importance or Stature.
And yet it is this same Raymond Buckland,
Who in 1974 published The Tree: The Complete Book of Saxon Witchcraft.
With the Clear intention that this book provide a means for those who
desired to to initiate themselves into Wicca, by observing the Rites and
Rituals described in this book and Honoring the Goddess and the God in
the persons of Woden and Freyja; his own introduction to the 2005
republication of this book as Buckland's Book of Saxon Witchcraft, makes
it absolutely clear he has not reconsidered his position, neither on the
possibility of persons to initiate themselves, nor on assisting them to
do so by providing a manual containing the guidance needed to pursue
that goal; I suggest to interested members that even if they do not
purchase the book themselves, they should read the introduction at their
local Library, or their Local Borders or Barns. Buckland furthered this
commitment to the self initiated in Living Wicca (2001), a much larger
and more comprehensive manual for the Solitary Witch.
Of course not everyone approved of Buckland's opening the Doors of Wicca
to the Self Initiated.
I have heard wonderful stories about how Seax-Wica was supposed to have
come about. Margo Adler, in one of her books said it had originally been
created as a joke! Since I left Gardnerian Wicca after ten years of
dedication to take up Seax-Wica, it was hardly a joke for me. Nor was it
ever intended as one for anyone else. ...
Another Story I have heard was that I had written this book while drunk!
Where this idea originated I don't know, especially since I don't
believe I have ever been drunk in my life. And to write a whole book
while drunk would imply being inebriated for months at a time!
I have heard it said that Seax-Wica is not a "Valid" or "Authentic"
Witchcraft Tradition. What makes a Wicca Tradition authentic? Gardnerian
- Possibly the most respected of all modern versions of the Old Religion
- is only twenty years older than Seax-Wica. Any form of religion that
adequately meets your needs, must be Acknowledged as valid.
Raymond Buckland, Buckland's Book of Saxon Witchcraft, Pg xiii.
First off, I would like to point out the last sentence makes it clear,
Buckland Views Seax-Wica as a Wiccan Tradition, he is very careful about
his spelling of each through out the piece; and I think the passage
quoted above makes it clear that the Invitation to consider oneself
Wiccan has been extended, by Buckland to anyone willing to do the Work.
Not to just read a book, but to do the work outlined in that volume.
Which was all the orignal point I was trying to make, not to make a
definative statement one way or another on the value or validity of Self
Initation.
I am after all by most any definition self Initiated, I have been a
Solitary for 30 years, I have a long stand relationship with the Goddess
Innana, and a less long, but quite interesting Relationship with the
Goddess I think of as Innana-Kur and Tsulsala-Ki; who seems to be an
Eregore of some sort drawn to me, my mediation, via my fiction; but who
is quite real ... the energy I pulled invoking her just this morning
speaks to her intense reality.
at the same time, while I perform for myself all the tasks one would ask
of a Priest; I have never described myself as such, and I expect I never
will; after a long search I settled on the term Sukkal, Servant and I
will hold to that description. but the Question of Validity remains ...
"Wicca*, at the Crossroads" by Sky toucher (From "Enchante'" Magazine)
These are tricky and dangerous times. Wicca has grown in size to the
point where we no longer enjoy the luxury of obscurity. We now face a
choice that all initiatory paths face at some time in their development:
Whether to remain a viable initiatory path, and if so under what
circumstances; or to devolve into a mere religion.
I'd better backtrack-some readers may not understand what an initiatory
path is, or how it differs from a religion. Others may think paganism is
a religion already, and wonder what I mean by suggesting it is or could
be something else.
As Quoted by Gaia, Quoting Ellen Cannon Reed.
*but of course the Original was Paganism at the Crossroads, but here for
the purposes of this Quote I have taken the liberty of Subsituting Wicca
as Ellen has suggested.
The main problem was that Wicca was designed to grow slowly, with great
care taken as to who was accepted and how they were trained . In the
Gardneerian form there was a degree system with the need, generally, to
spend a year and a day in each degree before advancing. With the
pressure to expand rapidly, many coven leaders - new to the positions
themselves - gave way and sought to spread the Craft as quickly as they
could, the better to establish it. I fought this trend myself for a long
time and was consequently labeled elitist and snobbish. ...
At about this time I came to the decision that, as beautifal as
Gardnerian Wicca was, and as well as it had served me for the early
years, it wasn't totally right for my personal religious requirements. I
don't believe anyone should have to compromise when it comes to
religious worship. Everyone should feel completely comfortable in what
they do. ... I set to this task, using my own background in Wicca, and
in Religio-magic in general. Since I was born and raised in England, I
decided upon a Saxon foundation for my new Wicca.
Raymond Buckland Pgs x-xi; Bucklands Book of Saxon Witchcraft.
I think if we look at both of these Quotes side by each in our minds, we
see two responses to basicially the same situation. There is a
tremendous Spiritual Hunger out their for information on how to enter
onto a Pagan path, and that Hunger has specifically attached itself to
Wicca, because in the Public Imagination, Wicca and Paganism are
virtually the same, it is only on this side of the Event Horizon that
the differneces have meaning. Much as to most Westerners the Differences
between Shite and Sunni visions of Islam proke a Whaaaaat?
Gaia, Ellen, Sky Toucher ... all champion a vision of Wicca unchanging,
a tree growning as it Grew in the time Gardener tended the Garden,
slowly Priestess by Priest, by Priestess, covens slowly being nurtured
in older covens, taking wing leaving the nest nurturing new covens of
their own in time.
Buckland obviously saw and responded to a need to feed this hunger now,
while the oppertunity was there, before people spiritual starved, and
turned their backs on Wicca/Paganism. He was Followed by Z. Budepest,
Scott Cunningham, and others Since.
Allow me a little aside that will seem way off topic but it isn't ...
When was the last time you dialed a Phone number? ...
Depending on your age we might get quite a differnet anwser, but the
real anwser is something like this, I expect most of you reading this
have NEVER Dialed a phone number, because you have no experiance of
rotary phones at all; in your life you've only experinaced Touch Tone
Phones, and Mobile Phones, and Computers called Phones, that still give
you a message when your ring up a friend - Dailing Now.
We call it Dailing, because originally that's literaly what was being
done, you Dialed a Number; times change, phones have evolved beyond all
recongnition, and we still call it dialing.
If you called Raymond Buckland in 1974 on the eve of this his publishing
The Tree, and said; I really think you should think about what your
doing, you should think about the storm your about to unleash, you might
have literally dialed that phone. If you called him today ... you
wouldn't.
And the Wicca on the Ground in 1974 undeniablly would have been very in
line with Gaia's view of Wicca, Initiated, Covened and Linaged. ...
Today I don't think so ... today Hundreds of Thousands of persons of
have accepted Raymond Bucklands Invitation, Z. Budepests Inviation,
Scott Cunninghams invitation consider themselves Wiccan, and really
cannot be described accurately as anything else. The observable reality
on the ground, IMHO, is that the meaning of that word has changed, and
It is my hope as I expressed before that Wicca will stop arguing about
who is and is not Wiccan and Embrace this larger community, which I view
as a Wiccan Laity around that inner court of Initiated, Covened, Linaged
Priestesses, and Priests.
GAIA Said:Well, you're entitled to reject whatever you want - -But
again, you're not Wiccan, so with all due respect, I'm not sure that
your "vote" counts as much more than just that -- your personal opinion.
BB re: And Gaia's right, in that if some unimaginable congress where
assmebled to decide what it is to be Wiccan, a Wiccan Council of Niccea;
of course I would not have a vote ... but thats not imaginable. What is
happening what has been happening for 30 years, is that Wicca has been
and will continue to debate this issue; but that debate will have
consequeunces for all Neo-Pagans, because if Wicca is not the Trunk of a
Common Pagan Tree, it is certainly the Grandmother tree of this Garden,
the Health of Wicca affects the Health of all the others, even my own
little tree I tend alone.
So while the discussion continues, I will continue to give voice to my
view, and those who wish to consider that view, are welcome too, and
those who wish to dismiss it have that option. Wiccan an otherwise ...
If as Gaia Says; Our intention is to produce a religion of prophets,
with direct access to the Gods, using symbols, including images and
including our beliefs, as tools. We assume the capacity to connect,
the possibility of meaning, and that our experiences are the
foundation of everything, not our ideas. .....
Then clearly in those cases where the person has had direct Gnostic
Experiance of the Goddess they should be embraced as initiated by and of
the Goddess; saying otherwise seems to me like denying someone who won
the Indy 500 a drivers license because they did not complete their High
School Drivers ed course.
Last Wed in the wake of the American General Election Rove triumphantly
declared, "Climate is Dead." So crows the Vulture that would kill the
mother to drag one last barrel of oil from her failing heart. my friends
what ever you call yourself. WE HAVE WORK TO DO! Blessings, BB.
- 4.
-
What is Wicca 2-3 Elities.
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Tue Nov 9, 2010 6:45 am (PST)
Elite's and Elitism.
What has gone Before. ...
Gaia Quoting Ellen Cannon Reed: .....It is not a question of belief but
of experience: Wiccans do not, and should not, have a credo.....
Our intention is to produce a religion of prophets, with direct access
to the Gods, using symbols, including images and including our beliefs,
as tools. We assume the capacity to connect, the possibility of meaning,
and that our experiences are the foundation of everything, not our
ideas. .....
So, Wicca is an elite religion, which most people are not suited to.
Belief is not enough, it takes Talent and the capacity to experience
certain things and to go through a process of personal transformation,
Initiation, before one can practice it. It also is not a solo path, but
one where the most profound experiences are the result of group efforts.
The capacity of a group of trained people to focus their energy
magickally, the development and nurturance of an egregore, the strength
of trance induction done by experienced people, the sophistication of an
informed discussion of the Gods and the direct revelation from the Gods
through possession and inspiration trance, the aesthetic pleasures of
well-constructed and performed ritual, for these and other reasons the
coven form is highly preferable. However, implicit in this is that the
coven is not able to tolerate free-riders and uncommitted dabblers –
it is for participants, not spectators, a leaderful group rather than a
simple hierarchy.
BB:
IMHO, the Larger Pagan community will be better served if Wicca as whole
comes to accept it is no longer simply an Initiatory religion, but it
has a Laity; and Inner Court, and Outer Court, for want of better terms;
As I for one reject the elitism implied in those terms.
GAIA:
Well, you're entitled to reject whatever you want - -But again, you're
not Wiccan, so with all due respect, I'm not sure that your "vote"
counts as much more than just that -- your personal opinion.
I haven't discussed with you terms like "Initiatory Mystery Religion",
so i'm not sure what all your objections are; I can say that this
bugaboo of "elitism" often crops up with people who don't understand
those terms very well -- but (with all due respect) that is no reason
for Wiccans to reject the terms or their meaning and place in Wiccan
theology and practice.
Here's an important article (quoted by Ellen Cannon Reed in her book,
"The HEart of Wicca") that discusses those words/ concepts in some
depth, and i think helps clarify some of the confusion that causes such
concerns.
_____________________ ______
Unfortunately I'm not confused, and also unfortunately I don't believe
the most direct approach is the best way to express my concerns so I
will back track a little. ...
Michael Jordan is beyond doubt an Elite Level Basketball player, we may
be the single greatest player who ever lived.
Alexandra Kosteniuk, woman's world Champion is an Elite Level Chess
Player, she plays at a level 1 in 10000 players can ever hope to
achieve, most likely higher.
Stephan Hawking is an Elite Level Physicist, able to comprehend
Equations and Envision the realities they describe, at a level again
that perhaps literally 1 in a Million human minds can grasp.
There no doubt that there are Elites Uniquely Talented people in every
discipline of human endeavor.
And as Pagans, we don't take things on Faith, and Belief, we pursue
inner Knowledge through the medium and disciplines of Divination,
Ritual, Energy work, and Trance; and it is simply inevitable that some
people will have more talent for these things than others, some will
have Talents comparable to the Vanishing small percentile of a Stephen
Hawking, a World Class Chess Player or an NFL Quarterback. The Problem
is when we are dealing with spiritual matters and spiritual tools the
dangers here are immense.
Most of you will remember a couple years ago, how Michael Vick, an NFL
Quarterback for the Atlanta Falcon's at the time ran afoul the Law
because he found to be involved in a Dog Fighting Ring; he was not the
first Elite Level Athlete to believe the Law, and the Rules that apply
to common members of society did not apply to him, did he learn better I
wonder, he has done his time returned to the game and again enjoys the
adulation of his fans.
but when we extend this Idea of Elites to the Spiritual Realm, we step
up to if not off a very slippery slope, and a very steep one at that,
history is full of examples of self appointed Spiritual Elites ...
Elite,
to Elect
to Chosen
and it only gets worse from there,
The view from the top of this peak down into simple Arrogance is clear,
it is inherent in the concept of a spiritual Elite that the Spirit of
the Spiritually Elite person is better than the Spirit of the Common
person the Spiritually Elite person is being compared to, and that is
simply and utterly incompatible with the Idea that All Men (and Women)
are Created Equal, and Endowed by their creator with certain inalienable
rights.
Once you've stepped off that cliff, you are at liberty to start thinking
of yourself as a superior person, entitled to Rights that others are not
worthy of, Privileges they to not deserve, honors they do not merit.
Drive down that road and you'll pass David Koresh.
It is perhaps the case that English fails us as a Language, as it often
does; English is a very poor Language for a spiritual discussion, we
have to Import words like Gnosis and Gnostic to describe persons and
experiences not based on faith, because English does not even Recognize
the possibility. We have to Invent words Like Magick, or Magic to
describe the difference between the results of Genuine Energy Work and
an Illusionist's Parlor Tricks.
But maybe then again it's not the Language at all.
Maybe I am right in my belief, that this is simply one of the most
corrosive Idea's in human history, it shows up time and again, it
respects neither Racial, Religious, or Geographical Boundaries. There is
a old Terrible Movie c1985 Remo Williams, in which Chiun the Aging
Marital Artist training our title character in one scene just out of
hand informs him that, "The Korean is the Noblest Creature God has seen
fit to put upon this earth." While not a direct Quote, its close enough.
And while the line is intended to provide comic relief, we accept it
because by now we know, Chiun clearly sees himself as one of the Noblest
Creatures God has seen fit to put upon this earth. This idea is not
simply the province of the Nazi's they were simply among histories very
worst offenders ... it shows up time and time again in human history,
self described'
Elites,
Elect
Chosen
Aristocrats and Nobility
and where ever it shows up it is simply a poisonous idea that gives rise
to the worst sort of brain pollution, it is not an idea I wish to ever
see infect Paganism, not in any form of Paganism. Quite the reverse if
there were but one idea I would rip from the Human Psyche, Weed it from
our Garden and cast it on the compost heap of history that would be the
one. No Elites, no Elect, no Chosen, no "Most Perfect Master"s, None of
it.
I believe it was in part to draw Wicca away fromt this Elitism that
Raymond Buckland first pubished the Tree we have mentioned elsewhere,
There were aspects of Gardnerian Wicca that did not sit well with me.
That, along with the ego-tripping I observed, brought me to the
conclusion that I should construct a a form of Wicca that was just the
way I wanted it, for my own personal use.
snip
I felt the need to make it a more democratic form for covens, so that no
one could get into an uncontrollable position of power.
Buckland's Book of Saxon Witchcraft Pg xi.
Brightest Blessings, BB.
- 5.
-
What is Wicca 2-1 The Invitation comes from Her.
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Tue Nov 9, 2010 7:17 am (PST)
Hi All, I have broken my reply to Gaia into 3 parts, they will make much
more sense if read in the order they are intended. Blessings, BB.
What are We,
If a person asked what what you are ...
An American is most likely to reply, I'm an Architect, a Crane Operator,
a Technician, or a Cab Driver. As a nation our primary and expected
identification is with what we do for a living.
If you asked that Question 30 years ago in Ireland you would find; as my
step father discovered; the answer is more, A Poet, a Painter, a
Photographer, a Chess Player; and the Irishman would identify himself
not by what he did for a living, but by his great passion in life. I
don't know if that still true today, I don't know if we have corrupted
them, but I hope this remains true.
If you asked me that Question 30 years ago ... I might have told you I
as a Draughtsman, (a person who draws vs. A painter say.) I might have
said a Soldier, I was just getting into the Army, ... but I would not
have said ....
Pagan,
but today my primary Identification, who and what I am is Pagan; my art,
my story telling, my whole creative life is focused on expressing that
Paganism. My Photography is primarily of and about nature, it is about
more fully experiencing that Paganism, that is why I have spent the last
week pouring what creative energy I have had available admit life's
other Demands, and they have been demands; into this Question, because I
consider this a very important Question and I know many of you do as
well, even if you only silently read this board, and seldom raise your
voice in the room.
I've also been conversing about this thread with 'Ghost' who has become
a good bit more passionate about the subject than I have been myself;
and I have decided to break my reply into two pieces, this one is a bit
of personal history; I hope it is some value to other members who are
wresting with the Question, what am I, what do I call myself. The other
reply which will be posted simultaneously to this one, will address
briefly the history of this Question; for this is a Question that Wicca
has Wrestled with for 30 years; and While I respect Gala's opinion on
this issue, I feel someone must point out, it is not, and has not been
the only opinion for quite some time, not since Raymond Buckland first
published The Tree, in 1974; and if you embrace Mr. Buckland's point of
view, you will not be alone or out of necessity wrong, nor unwelcome
here, you will have simply taken another path towards the Goddess.
30 years ago as a young Man I found a Random copy of Z. Budapest's
Newsletter Themis laying around on campus; front and Center was this
Magnificent vision of a Horned Goddess and Crone, and I picked up that
news letter to copy that image, but in the coming days I found myself
intrigued with the text. This was my very first contact with the Modern
Pagan movement, it was as if finding a door, that led to where you knew
you wanted to go ... but that door was barred against you, because the
Newsletter was Dianic and did not accept subscriptions from Men; and
despite the temptation to do so; I refrained from Subscribing under a
false name; Partly out of genuine integrity, and partly because my
brothers would have given me infinite grief if they found out.
Still Zen will always be important to me, because she pointed the way,
she said to me it was not simply ridiculous or flat-out crazy to think
of oneself as Pagan. Here was a News Letter, written by a obviously
bright articulate, passionate and thoughtful Modern Pagan; ...
I was telling Ghost this story the other day, and she said, "Don't you
think she put it there for you to find."
"Zen?"
"No the Goddess."
And, you know, I think she did; Ghost has said this several times in the
last few days as we have discussed this reply.
"The Invitation comes from Her."
and it's got me thinking, I've always felt that to an extent, always
felt Nan offered me this path, not once but twice at least; once when I
happened upon Zen's News Letter, again years later after slogging
mindlessly through a decade of working two jobs, with no energy, no
hope, and no time for anything but more work when I happened upon the
Gendron Tarot; both times presenting me with Images of very powerful
Goddesses I simply wanted to Draw when I picked that invitation up, with
no idea what I would find beyond, behind those images.
And it's never made sense to me, I am in no way special; and I can't
imagine why she would bother; but what I have been blind to is, My
invitation comes from her, and yours, and your friends, and your
mothers; they all come from her; as she offers all her children with
eyes to see, or ears to hear an invitation to return to her.
Mine is in no way, better, more special, more sacred or meaningful than
yours ... Its just mine thats all.
A year or so ago when this subject came up previously, I remember the
Tremendous Distress expressed by "Grandmother Owl" who had her own
Gnostic Experience of the Goddess years ago, and had sense grown in her
craft, and come to think of herself as Wiccan, but did not at all fit
the Definition of Wiccan Gala is putting forth here, I remember that
Trama because I empathized with it deeply myself.
Wicca is faced with this challenge now, Deciding what you are, very
often involves deciding who you are not, and while closing those doors
will not necessarily harm those with-in and those with-out; it can be
quite a blow to those on the threshold to have the door slammed in their
face.
As a Pagan, who knows whatever 'Wicca' decides in the end, it will
affect the entire Neo-Pagan movement, I sincerely hope that that
decision will be more inclusive not less, more diverse not less, and
empathic not less. I also hope that Wicca as a body will find the wisdom
to remember, the Invitation does not come for Gardener, nor Gaia, nor
Grandmother Owl, nor me
The Invitation comes from Her.
Brightest Blessings, BB.
- 6a.
-
Re: Dreaming of the deceased
Posted by: "Leslie B" lrbelair@yahoo.com lrbelair
Tue Nov 9, 2010 8:36 am (PST)
m/m
This person and I were seeing each other. At the time of his death we had been broken up for at least 6 months.
I was going through a rough time while we were together and there were a few times he did protect me.
He helped me get stronger, emotionally and to be more aware of myself and my needs.
As for if I think he is climbing into bed with me in the dream or his spirit, I am not sure. I think I feel him with me, holding me, I can smell him.
bb
Les
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , "desdemona" <enchantedgarden196com 7@...> wrote:
>
> m/m who is this person ?do you know him? when he was alive? he protecs you he must know you or you in sometime ago needed help. interesting b/b des
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