duminică, 7 noiembrie 2010

[WitchesWorkshop] Digest Number 4571

Messages In This Digest (7 Messages)

Messages

1a.

Re: recent article advice on witches and pagans for police

Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au   carteblanche13

Sat Nov 6, 2010 4:12 am (PDT)



But you're not in Dacia now, are you. The same principle applies.

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "barbtrad" <barbtrad@...> wrote:
>
> Hi C.B.
>
> On your point ..Why Celtic names? I have to agree. Yep! like a lot of Aussies I do have a touch of Celtic blood, but my predominant linage is Dacian. It is a hereditary Dacian spirituality I adhere to along with their dates and times..Oh and just as a matter of interest.. we see mid summer, mid winter and the equinoxes as seasonal and celebrate those at times appropriate to our location. The other 6 biggies for us are not on seasonal times more astrological timing.. hence .. to us... remain to a fixed schedule regardless where we are.
>
> As for old Sam Hain.. Im bLoNky and the rest.. nope sorry they just don't resonate after all their usage has only become popular in recent times. I never heard of them as a callow youth going through his training under long suffering teachers. nor later when we formed our first hived off coven.. in fact not until the Newage made all things Celtic trendy.
>
> And just in case that along with the usual slings and arrows us traditionalist oft are rained on by, comes an accusation of anti Celtism, (cripes is that a word), nay my friends.. in fact... there exists a bit of evidence that the Dacians or perhaps the related Thracians just might have been where the original Celts emerged from!
>
> Bill.
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Deb <universalpeace2005@> wrote:
> > >
> > >   Wonder if here in Australia they would follow the Southern
> > > Wheel, or think if it's Samhain in Northern Hemisphere, it must be Samhain in Southern, let alone other silly thoughts.
> >
> >
> > It all gets one thinking, doesn't it. But days have no names, it is we who bestow them upon them.
> >
> > I mean, why bother with Celtic names anyway? It's not like we grew up using them (well, not in a continuous sort of way). It seems a touch affected to me.
> >
> > I (speaking solely in terms of personal preference) would rather dignify the traditional Celtic titles by leaving them for exclusive use upon the soil which gave them birth.
> >
> > Fair enough if we all lived in the British Isles, but we don't. Using an inverted timing is fine because, more or less, it reflects an actual discernible fact (or a symmetrical generalisation or convention based upon one).
> >
> > But the names? What about some new ones, to reflect our unique situation? Simply moving the Northern ones six months along isn't, I don't know - isn't the "best fit" or something.
> >
> > The (present) miracle of the Aussie situation (in global socio- historical terms) : that is, the spirits of land, of sea, and of air which have led our forbears here - all of us, from the newest Chinese immigrant to the descendants of the First Fleeters; the Mediterranean immigrants who brought so much colour and savoir-faire into the business of colonisation, the refugees from the Middle East and Africa, to the most ancient and untouched indigenous lineage - we were all brought here by Fate, and here we remain.
> >
> > We all celebrate the seasons as seasons, as "children of earth and starry Heaven, whose race is of Heaven".
> >
> >
> > There might be a lot of Celts here who practise what they feel is in the spirit of their ancestral pagan traditions (it is not my business to question the veracity of this belief) but if the timing, actual geography, and so on is foreign to all Celtic tradition, and the timing is completely out, why apply the name to the opposite time of the year, to a moment when those whose forbears never left Celtic soil will be using precisly the contrary term?
> >
> > Why not just say "Spring" or "Autumn"? English (even modern Australian English) is as magical a language as any.
> >
> > Perhaps a special prefix or formal something could be added to note a particular day as a Feast day or something.
> >
> > This isn't to diss anyone who uses the Celt names, at either arrangement. But I wonder whether it's time that this clever child of a nation took some bright, bold steps forwards - for surely the Future must be just as Pagan as the past, if not more so?
> >
> > Best
> > C.B.
> >
>

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Messages in this topic (12)
1b.

Re: recent article advice on witches and pagans for police

Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au   carteblanche13

Sat Nov 6, 2010 4:52 am (PDT)



My point being, it is not the "where from" but the "where now/where to" which is not given enough (if any!) thought at this particular fork in the road. We are in a unique situation. What your ancestors in Dacia did worked for them in their situation - but this situation is not that situation, and you are not them, and then is not now.

We do not have the same relationships to our universe that our ancestors had, whether they seem to have been "Dacian" (which tribe?), Celt (which tribe?), German (which tribe?!), Latin (which tribe?), Etruscan (which tribe?) or whatever. Your Dacian ancestors had a relationship with their universe which you simply do not and cannot possibly ever, ever have here, in an identical way - regardless of the predominant gene patterns which you like to believe to be floating throughout your body. The universe has moved on, and so have we, and so have our ancestors.

To fully honour our ancestors, we must honour the consequences of their actions which led US to be in the present -and totally alien- situation.

Of course we can all do what we like - and should.

But to my mind, it's what we do NOW, and what our descendants (spiritual and otherwise) will do ten thousand years in the future, not what people may (or may not!!) have done in the past, that is of primary concern.

Tribal considerations of this sort seem little more than sentiment and nostalgia, a form of escapism. We do not have our distant ancestors' tribe-bound consciousness, let alone their primitive language - we have global consciousness of a kind undreamt of by ANY of our ancestors - even our parents (some of us!). That isn't to say we can't learn a bit from tribal societies to our benefit, but the arrow of time indicates momentum in a different dimension to a mere preservation of form, over essence.

C.B.

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@...> wrote:
>
> But you're not in Dacia now, are you. The same principle applies.
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "barbtrad" <barbtrad@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi C.B.
> >
> > On your point ..Why Celtic names? I have to agree. Yep! like a lot of Aussies I do have a touch of Celtic blood, but my predominant linage is Dacian. It is a hereditary Dacian spirituality I adhere to along with their dates and times..Oh and just as a matter of interest.. we see mid summer, mid winter and the equinoxes as seasonal and celebrate those at times appropriate to our location. The other 6 biggies for us are not on seasonal times more astrological timing.. hence .. to us... remain to a fixed schedule regardless where we are.
> >
> > As for old Sam Hain.. Im bLoNky and the rest.. nope sorry they just don't resonate after all their usage has only become popular in recent times. I never heard of them as a callow youth going through his training under long suffering teachers. nor later when we formed our first hived off coven.. in fact not until the Newage made all things Celtic trendy.
> >
> > And just in case that along with the usual slings and arrows us traditionalist oft are rained on by, comes an accusation of anti Celtism, (cripes is that a word), nay my friends.. in fact... there exists a bit of evidence that the Dacians or perhaps the related Thracians just might have been where the original Celts emerged from!
> >
> > Bill.
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Deb <universalpeace2005@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >   Wonder if here in Australia they would follow the Southern
> > > > Wheel, or think if it's Samhain in Northern Hemisphere, it must be Samhain in Southern, let alone other silly thoughts.
> > >
> > >
> > > It all gets one thinking, doesn't it. But days have no names, it is we who bestow them upon them.
> > >
> > > I mean, why bother with Celtic names anyway? It's not like we grew up using them (well, not in a continuous sort of way). It seems a touch affected to me.
> > >
> > > I (speaking solely in terms of personal preference) would rather dignify the traditional Celtic titles by leaving them for exclusive use upon the soil which gave them birth.
> > >
> > > Fair enough if we all lived in the British Isles, but we don't. Using an inverted timing is fine because, more or less, it reflects an actual discernible fact (or a symmetrical generalisation or convention based upon one).
> > >
> > > But the names? What about some new ones, to reflect our unique situation? Simply moving the Northern ones six months along isn't, I don't know - isn't the "best fit" or something.
> > >
> > > The (present) miracle of the Aussie situation (in global socio- historical terms) : that is, the spirits of land, of sea, and of air which have led our forbears here - all of us, from the newest Chinese immigrant to the descendants of the First Fleeters; the Mediterranean immigrants who brought so much colour and savoir-faire into the business of colonisation, the refugees from the Middle East and Africa, to the most ancient and untouched indigenous lineage - we were all brought here by Fate, and here we remain.
> > >
> > > We all celebrate the seasons as seasons, as "children of earth and starry Heaven, whose race is of Heaven".
> > >
> > >
> > > There might be a lot of Celts here who practise what they feel is in the spirit of their ancestral pagan traditions (it is not my business to question the veracity of this belief) but if the timing, actual geography, and so on is foreign to all Celtic tradition, and the timing is completely out, why apply the name to the opposite time of the year, to a moment when those whose forbears never left Celtic soil will be using precisly the contrary term?
> > >
> > > Why not just say "Spring" or "Autumn"? English (even modern Australian English) is as magical a language as any.
> > >
> > > Perhaps a special prefix or formal something could be added to note a particular day as a Feast day or something.
> > >
> > > This isn't to diss anyone who uses the Celt names, at either arrangement. But I wonder whether it's time that this clever child of a nation took some bright, bold steps forwards - for surely the Future must be just as Pagan as the past, if not more so?
> > >
> > > Best
> > > C.B.
> > >
> >
>

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Messages in this topic (12)
1c.

Re: recent article advice on witches and pagans for police

Posted by: "barbtrad" barbtrad@yahoo.com.au   barbtrad

Sat Nov 6, 2010 2:50 pm (PDT)



HI c.B.

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@...> wrote:
>
> My point being, it is not the "where from" but the "where now/where to" which is not given enough (if any!) thought at this particular fork in the road. We are in a unique situation. What your ancestors in Dacia did worked for them in their situation - but this situation is not that situation, and you are not them, and then is not now.


No doubt time and location cause necessary changes. That said, I think it is the essence of spirituality our ancestors had that is so attractive to us. Yep! changes are forced upon us, some, it must be admitted, make life easier ... some we find just grind down our sense of well being. Sure we have a lot of mod cons and no longer have to find the right tree, strip off the bark, pound it then soak it and drink the resulting infusion every time we get a head ache - we just go to the cupboard and get a panadol. Yet I really wonder how many of us traditionalists, given a choice, would forgo all our modern advantages (?) if they could return to the world their ancestors knew?
I suppose the reason we do hang on to dates, practices and our traditions is because we are trying to have the best of both worlds.

>
> We do not have the same relationships to our universe that our ancestors had, whether they seem to have been "Dacian" (which tribe?), Celt (which tribe?), German (which tribe?!), Latin (which tribe?), Etruscan (which tribe?) or whatever. Your Dacian ancestors had a relationship with their universe which you simply do not and cannot possibly ever, ever have here, in an identical way - regardless of the predominant gene patterns which you like to believe to be floating throughout your body. The universe has moved on, and so have we, and so have our ancestors.

Well I can not agree entirely with you there. The tribal differences you allude to were probably not as varied in ancient times as they became later. And depending on the geographical spread as to how much change occurred. Relationship to the universe? Can't speak for all, but for us I don't believe that has changed much, if at all. Our relationship with this realm? Yep, changed greatly. Changed because we don't much like the way the place is run, nor those running it. Don't like the way we are completely powerless to change anything of any real significance. What we have is the choice every few years to choose which bunch of arseholes will govern us.. and that's our lot mate.. like it or lump it!
>
> To fully honour our ancestors, we must honour the consequences of their actions which led US to be in the present -and totally alien- situation.

A pretty profound observation CB. And our particular ancestors, ( not everyone's as what I put forward here definitely would not apply to all spiritual paths)were taught and were constantly aware that they had a responsibility to place stepping stones in realms outside the mundane for their descendants to find the way, and we, their descendants, have held to that duty. Do the stepping stones we put in place point to a different direction to those of our ancestors? Certainly not! Have we made changes to our moral codes and practices? Yes we have had to, but personally I do not believe these changes have been beneficial, Necessary, yes, entirely a good thing..No.
>
> Of course we can all do what we like - and should.

Only to a point CB..IMO.
>
> But to my mind, it's what we do NOW, and what our descendants (spiritual and otherwise) will do ten thousand years in the future, not what people may (or may not!!) have done in the past, that is of primary concern.

We believe its all completely tied together. There is past, present and future, but they are all part of the one ..Damn hard to put in a few words without sounding like some sort of Eastern claptrap.

OK I'm going to have to dissect this paragraph..I hate doing that but I have to deal with each point separately. Apologies in advance CB.
>
> Tribal considerations of this sort seem little more than sentiment and nostalgia, a form of escapism.

No way more than that. For us, a foundation on which to build. Something solid to cling to when the world around us seems to be turning to lunacy and a great engine running on bullshit and producing producing things we detest. Tribalism equals escapism? In a way yes, but an escapism that is not complete fantasy.

We do not have our distant ancestors' tribe-bound consciousness,

Yes we do CB. Who we were, who we are and who we will be are all interwoven.. and for us just cannot be looked at in isolation.

let alone their primitive language -

Definitely concede that one..Laziness, or perhaps preoccupation with other things.. has seen a loss of our mother tongue.. and in honesty, I don't think that is all that important.Hasn't been too much of a handicap so far.

we have global consciousness of a kind undreamt of by ANY of our ancestors - even our parents (some of us!).

Sorry CB, but global consciousness? Only as far as seeing the "globe" as a temporary residence, doomed to obliteration eventually. ( and this was a belief of ancestors, well before science discovered that the earth did have a useby date)

That isn't to say we can't learn a bit from tribal societies to our benefit, but the arrow of time indicates momentum in a different dimension to a mere preservation of form, over essence.

Oh yes my friend.. agreed entirely! It' all about essence. However, some of our anachronisms are the key to retaining this very essence.

Thank you for an enjoyable discussion CB.

Bill.

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1d.

Re: recent article advice on witches and pagans for police

Posted by: "Leif Njordsson" godhi@elderway.org   woodhenge_aust

Sat Nov 6, 2010 3:53 pm (PDT)



G'day Bill

I was going to respond along similar lines but feel no need to reinvent
the wheel.

Life is a continuum, the norns bind past present and future into a
composite structure. The past provides us with the tools to build in
the present and step into the future.

they are the 3 points of stability upon which our essense, and that of
our ancestors is built.

Hope all is well with you and yours

Wes Thu Hael

Leif

People: Teutonic
Tribe: Ruggae

On 7/11/2010 8:20 AM, barbtrad wrote:
>
> HI c.B.
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:WitchesWorkshop%40yahoogroups.com>, "carteblanche13"
> <carteblanche13@...> wrote:
> >
> > My point being, it is not the "where from" but the "where now/where
> to" which is not given enough (if any!) thought at this particular
> fork in the road. We are in a unique situation. What your ancestors in
> Dacia did worked for them in their situation - but this situation is
> not that situation, and you are not them, and then is not now.
>
>
> No doubt time and location cause necessary changes. That said, I think
> it is the essence of spirituality our ancestors had that is so
> attractive to us. Yep! changes are forced upon us, some, it must be
> admitted, make life easier ... some we find just grind down our sense
> of well being. Sure we have a lot of mod cons and no longer have to
> find the right tree, strip off the bark, pound it then soak it and
> drink the resulting infusion every time we get a head ache - we just
> go to the cupboard and get a panadol. Yet I really wonder how many of
> us traditionalists, given a choice, would forgo all our modern
> advantages (?) if they could return to the world their ancestors knew?
> I suppose the reason we do hang on to dates, practices and our
> traditions is because we are trying to have the best of both worlds.
>
> >
> > We do not have the same relationships to our universe that our
> ancestors had, whether they seem to have been "Dacian" (which tribe?),
> Celt (which tribe?), German (which tribe?!), Latin (which tribe?),
> Etruscan (which tribe?) or whatever. Your Dacian ancestors had a
> relationship with their universe which you simply do not and cannot
> possibly ever, ever have here, in an identical way - regardless of the
> predominant gene patterns which you like to believe to be floating
> throughout your body. The universe has moved on, and so have we, and
> so have our ancestors.
>
> Well I can not agree entirely with you there. The tribal differences
> you allude to were probably not as varied in ancient times as they
> became later. And depending on the geographical spread as to how much
> change occurred. Relationship to the universe? Can't speak for all,
> but for us I don't believe that has changed much, if at all. Our
> relationship with this realm? Yep, changed greatly. Changed because we
> don't much like the way the place is run, nor those running it. Don't
> like the way we are completely powerless to change anything of any
> real significance. What we have is the choice every few years to
> choose which bunch of arseholes will govern us.. and that's our lot
> mate.. like it or lump it!
> >
> > To fully honour our ancestors, we must honour the consequences of
> their actions which led US to be in the present -and totally alien-
> situation.
>
> A pretty profound observation CB. And our particular ancestors, ( not
> everyone's as what I put forward here definitely would not apply to
> all spiritual paths)were taught and were constantly aware that they
> had a responsibility to place stepping stones in realms outside the
> mundane for their descendants to find the way, and we, their
> descendants, have held to that duty. Do the stepping stones we put in
> place point to a different direction to those of our ancestors?
> Certainly not! Have we made changes to our moral codes and practices?
> Yes we have had to, but personally I do not believe these changes have
> been beneficial, Necessary, yes, entirely a good thing..No.
> >
> > Of course we can all do what we like - and should.
>
> Only to a point CB..IMO.
> >
> > But to my mind, it's what we do NOW, and what our descendants
> (spiritual and otherwise) will do ten thousand years in the future,
> not what people may (or may not!!) have done in the past, that is of
> primary concern.
>
> We believe its all completely tied together. There is past, present
> and future, but they are all part of the one ..Damn hard to put in a
> few words without sounding like some sort of Eastern claptrap.
>
> OK I'm going to have to dissect this paragraph..I hate doing that but
> I have to deal with each point separately. Apologies in advance CB.
> >
> > Tribal considerations of this sort seem little more than sentiment
> and nostalgia, a form of escapism.
>
> No way more than that. For us, a foundation on which to build.
> Something solid to cling to when the world around us seems to be
> turning to lunacy and a great engine running on bullshit and producing
> producing things we detest. Tribalism equals escapism? In a way yes,
> but an escapism that is not complete fantasy.
>
> We do not have our distant ancestors' tribe-bound consciousness,
>
> Yes we do CB. Who we were, who we are and who we will be are all
> interwoven.. and for us just cannot be looked at in isolation.
>
> let alone their primitive language -
>
> Definitely concede that one..Laziness, or perhaps preoccupation with
> other things.. has seen a loss of our mother tongue.. and in honesty,
> I don't think that is all that important.Hasn't been too much of a
> handicap so far.
>
> we have global consciousness of a kind undreamt of by ANY of our
> ancestors - even our parents (some of us!).
>
> Sorry CB, but global consciousness? Only as far as seeing the "globe"
> as a temporary residence, doomed to obliteration eventually. ( and
> this was a belief of ancestors, well before science discovered that
> the earth did have a useby date)
>
> That isn't to say we can't learn a bit from tribal societies to our
> benefit, but the arrow of time indicates momentum in a different
> dimension to a mere preservation of form, over essence.
>
> Oh yes my friend.. agreed entirely! It' all about essence. However,
> some of our anachronisms are the key to retaining this very essence.
>
> Thank you for an enjoyable discussion CB.
>
> Bill.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Version: 10.0.1153 / Virus Database: 424/3240 - Release Date: 11/05/10
>

-----
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Messages in this topic (12)
1e.

Re: recent article advice on witches and pagans for police

Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au   carteblanche13

Sat Nov 6, 2010 6:58 pm (PDT)



Dear Leif,

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Leif Njordsson <godhi@...> wrote:
>
> G'day Bill
>
> I was going to respond along similar lines but feel no need to reinvent
> the wheel.

If I may read the implication (i.e. as applied to my discussion and not as your endorsement of Bill's reply - please ignore if this is totally irrelevant) and indulge in some gratuitious metaphor-mongering, I'd say it is not so much a matter of "re-inventing the wheel" as realising that it is in fact a sphere, and needs a fresh approach.

Or perhaps recognising that one wheel is great for unicycles and wheelbarrows, but perhaps it's time for a little more?

Apart from that, I agree with what you say below - but in building for the future it must be recognised that it would certainly appear to be of a distinct character from this (equally conjectural) past of which you speak.

C.B.

> Life is a continuum, the norns bind past present and future into a
> composite structure. The past provides us with the tools to build in
> the present and step into the future.
>
> they are the 3 points of stability upon which our essense, and that of
> our ancestors is built.
>
> Hope all is well with you and yours
>
> Wes Thu Hael
>
> Leif
>
> People: Teutonic
> Tribe: Ruggae
>

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Messages in this topic (12)
1f.

Re: recent article advice on witches and pagans for police

Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au   carteblanche13

Sat Nov 6, 2010 8:00 pm (PDT)



Dear Bill

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "barbtrad" <barbtrad@...> wrote:
>
> HI c.B.
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@> wrote:
> >
> > My point being, it is not the "where from" but the "where now/where to" which is not given enough (if any!) thought at this particular fork in the road. We are in a unique situation. What your ancestors in Dacia did worked for them in their situation - but this situation is not that situation, and you are not them, and then is not now.
>
>
> No doubt time and location cause necessary changes. That said, I think it is the essence of spirituality our ancestors had that is so attractive to us. Yep! changes are forced upon us, some, it must be admitted, make life easier ... some we find just grind down our sense of well being. Sure we have a lot of mod cons and no longer have to find the right tree, strip off the bark, pound it then soak it and drink the resulting infusion every time we get a head ache - we just go to the cupboard and get a panadol. Yet I really wonder how many of us traditionalists, given a choice, would forgo all our modern advantages (?) if they could return to the world their ancestors knew?

That doesn't matter - what matters is the simple fact that they can't: that world is gone, and they are gone, and we are here, now.

With Panadol!

And there is nothing any less "spiritual", natural or magical about Panadol simply because it is a refined product. It is a part of the universe and it is even more sacred to our species because we have extracted it from Nature's bounty using Alchemical means.

Our ancestors brought us here - and for a reason.

Or not! I keep hearing about Ancestors but what about descendants? Our ancestors, despite sophistication in some areas, were actually incredibly ignorant in many respects simply because a lot was not yet known because the means to that knowledge had not emerged in human consciousness which it now has, making us actually much better off, with double the lifespan and infinitely more control over our lives and lifestyles.

> I suppose the reason we do hang on to dates, practices and our traditions is because we are trying to have the best of both worlds.

But that is preserving a fossilised form over the essential point which it originally had and applying it out of context, which is meaningless except in a purely superficial sort of way. The essence of the dates and traditions was as an expression of a particular relationship to the universe, one which does not obtain in this situation.

> > We do not have the same relationships to our universe that our ancestors had, whether they seem to have been "Dacian" (which tribe?), Celt (which tribe?), German (which tribe?!), Latin (which tribe?), Etruscan (which tribe?) or whatever. Your Dacian ancestors had a relationship with their universe which you simply do not and cannot possibly ever, ever have here, in an identical way - regardless of the predominant gene patterns which you like to believe to be floating throughout your body. The universe has moved on, and so have we, and so have our ancestors.
>
>
> Well I can not agree entirely with you there. The tribal differences you allude to were probably not as varied in ancient times as they became later.

But you don't know.

>And depending on the geographical spread as to how much change occurred.

Yes - and I think a move to the southern hemisphere is as radical a change to "geographical spread" as it can get! Therefore, by your own logic, the difference should reflect this, which is what I am saying.

>Relationship to the universe? Can't speak for all, but for us I don't believe that has changed much, if at all.

It has changed fundamentally, whether you are able to be aware of it or not. Your distant ancestors lived half as long, ate totally different food, took totally different drugs, never watched tv or used online forums written in English, never caught a plane, or saw an Australian aborigine, had no idea about China, or realised the moon was a rock and could have a guy standing on it etc. etc. etc. Utterly different relationship, different people, different universe (to them).

And yes, I'll say it: a better one, too.

>Our relationship with this realm? Yep, changed greatly.

Yes, the universe, where we all live, is what I said.

> Changed because we don't much like the way the place is run, nor those running it. Don't like the way we are completely powerless to change anything of any real significance. What we have is the choice every few years to choose which bunch of arseholes will govern us.. and that's our lot mate.. like it or lump it!

Ah, the Athenian legacy, democracy. As opposed to no choice at all because you've been conquered and completely assimilated by the Romans (as the Dacians were, along with nearly everyone else), it is a great deal of choice in fact. You can't please all of the people all of the time etc.

> > To fully honour our ancestors, we must honour the consequences of their actions which led US to be in the present -and totally alien- situation.
>
> A pretty profound observation CB. And our particular ancestors, ( not everyone's as what I put forward here definitely would not apply to all spiritual paths)were taught and were constantly aware that they had a responsibility to place stepping stones in realms outside the mundane for their descendants to find the way, and we, their descendants, have held to that duty.

That sounds all very nostalgic but you keep harping on about ancestry as though it means something. It may mean something, but it doesn't mean everything.

I think that anyone anywhere who has developed particular parts of themselves in the spiritual dimension through magical and mystical practise of whatever kind will have far more in common with eachother, regardless of heredity, than would members of the same tribe or even family who have no magical experience at all, which is usually the majority.

Now within tribe and family, for there to be succeeding generations of magical and mystical transmission it is probable that there will be (to a certain extent) a certain unity of form and styling (which is often impossible to measure due to a poverty of source material), but it is perhaps equally the responsibility of the new custodians of that tradition to develop it according to the spirit of their particular time and place, just as their ancestors did. That is continuing the tradition. Simply preserving the forms of the tradition out of all relation to actual reality, and context, is not preserving the tradition at all, but simply its shells.

>Do the stepping stones we put in place point to a different direction to those of our ancestors? Certainly not! Have we made changes to our moral codes and practices? Yes we have had to,

But you've just contradicted yourself. Your ancestors had different moral codes and practises - you just said it. You changed them "because we have had to", i.e., because the context of time and place is different. You have, in a word, "updated" them. So you have updated some bits of your "tradition", the moral code and practises, but left the rest on ice?

> We believe its all completely tied together. There is past, present and future, but they are all part of the one ..Damn hard to put in a few words without sounding like some sort of Eastern claptrap.

Which is my point precisely. Your ancestors -the mystics and magicians amongst them- would likely have seen this "eastern claptrap" and recognised it as an identical understanding of the initiated reality which they had discovered. Hence my point about "global consciousness".

However, in the realm of appearances, things are about as radically different for you as they could possibly get. You cannot and do not have the same relationship to your world that your ancestors had to theirs. It is a different world, you are different, the time is in fact TOTALLY different (if it wasn't, we wouldn't need archeology) and so are the ways in which we live. Eastern or Western claptrap aside, the fact is we live in a compressed consequence of the past which demands radically new thinking - as your update to your "moral code and practises (some)" proves.

> > Tribal considerations of this sort seem little more than sentiment and nostalgia, a form of escapism.
>
> No way more than that. For us, a foundation on which to build.

Great! It's the "building" part I'm not seeing much of, just lots of exhuming of smelly ancestral bones.

>Something solid to cling to when the world around us seems to be turning to lunacy and a great engine running on bullshit and producing producing things we detest.

I am sure that you are not alone in this sentiment. However, it may perhaps be worth pointing out that everyone is doing their best, such as it may be.

> We do not have our distant ancestors' tribe-bound consciousness,
>
> Yes we do CB.

No you don't actually. You don't live like they do, and you can't, no matter how hard you try.

Language? Food? Art? Music? Stories? Science? Custom?

You have a language which is infinitely richer and deeper than theirs, containing words for many more concepts which they couldn't possibly have known than their tiny little tribal language had of ones which you don't know. You speak a language spoken by two billion other people, and in every country on Earth, which won two world wars. It is the global currency. The Dacian tongue was spoken by a few thousand at best, and there are no books.

You do not have your ancestor's tribe-bound consciousness - you have far greater consciousness (i.e. awareness) than they did.

Just because someone is dead does not make them great!

> Who we were, who we are and who we will be are all interwoven.. and for us just cannot be looked at in isolation.

Yes, fine. Interwoven. But also totally distinct and seperate, not identical. Your ancestors knew precisely who they were, and most likely were not trying really hard to be their own ancestors in a foreign time - and place.

> let alone their primitive language -
>
> Definitely concede that one..Laziness, or perhaps preoccupation with other things.. has seen a loss of our mother tongue.. and in honesty, I don't think that is all that important.Hasn't been too much of a handicap so far.

Indeed - it has instead been an advantage (although I am sure we have lost some great words in Dacian). The language factor indicates the radical change in consciousness which has attended the global interweaving of minds during the last few centuries.

You have changed language, AND "morals and practises" - that sounds pretty radical to me. In fact it sounds complete.

> we have global consciousness of a kind undreamt of by ANY of our ancestors - even our parents (some of us!).
>
> Sorry CB, but global consciousness?

Yes, global consciousness!! Global awareness. Global self-regard. Unlike the ignorant and primitive tribes of history such as the Dacians, the Romans, and so on, we know we live on a massive globe and can travel to any part of it within a single day, and that it orbits the sun. We communicate INSTANTANEOUSLY at the speed of light with anyone at all, wherever they are, on that globe (unless they are with vodafone, which always drops out). We perform open heart surgery, we meet the moon, study the borders of the physical universe, and allow women to vote. Whatever you think of these things, they are all new.

If you lived your entire life in a single closed room thinking it was all there was, and then suddenly at age 36 was shown the outside world, you would never, ever be the same again. That is what has happened to our species. We are different now, and always will be.

>Only as far as seeing the "globe" as a temporary residence, doomed to obliteration eventually. ( and this was a belief of ancestors, well before science discovered that the earth did have a useby date)

Everything has its time, that is not news.

> It' all about essence. However, some of our anachronisms are the key to retaining this very essence.

The key, perhaps - but not the essence itself.

C.B.

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1g.

Tradition

Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au   carteblanche13

Sat Nov 6, 2010 8:49 pm (PDT)



Dear Bill,

Further thoughts (ignore ad libitum!):

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Bill
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "barbtrad" <barbtrad@> wrote:
> >
> > HI c.B.
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Changed because we don't much like the way the place is run, nor those running it. Don't like the way we are completely powerless to change anything of any real significance. What we have is the choice every few years to choose which bunch of arseholes will govern us.. and that's our lot mate.. like it or lump it!

Most of our pagan ancestors had even less say in the matter - and even in the less despotic democratic situations there would have been cliques and corruption.

I'd like to add a correction here, to what I wrote:

> I think that anyone anywhere who has developed particular parts of themselves in the spiritual dimension through magical and mystical practise of whatever kind will have far more in common with eachother, regardless of heredity, than [>>they would with] members of the same tribe or even family who have no magical experience at all, which is usually the majority.

> > We believe its all completely tied together. There is past, present and future, but they are all part of the one ..Damn hard to put in a few words without sounding like some sort of Eastern claptrap.

The thought occurs to me now that your/our ancestors probably got it from the East originally, anyway! But we'll never know for sure.

> >Something solid to cling to when the world around us seems to be turning to lunacy and a great engine running on bullshit and producing producing things we detest.

Archbishop Pell says the same thing. I believe the president of The Islamic Republic of Iran agrees with both of you on this - and yet you'd probably all burn eachother alive as heretics if you could.

The direction of the Great Work is said to be a penetration, fructification or transmutation of Nature (Reality), not a denial or rejection of Her. But I agree - in terms of the new global industrial human society, we're still clutching at straws.

Perhaps it's just "growing pains" - something to be weathered, but with a "forward escape" mentality?

Best regards

C.B.

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