Messages In This Digest (4 Messages)
- 1a.
- Re: recent article advice on witches and pagans for police From: carteblanche13
- 2a.
- Re: Toro 'deploro' From: carteblanche13
- 3a.
- Re: Tradition From: carteblanche13
- 3b.
- Re: Tradition From: barbtrad
Messages
- 1a.
-
Re: recent article advice on witches and pagans for police
Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au carteblanche13
Mon Nov 8, 2010 5:00 am (PST)
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "barbtrad" <barbtrad@..com .> wrote:
>
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , Leif Njordsson <godhi@> wrote:com
> >
> >
> Very well put. Past present and future all one..Yes indeed!
This is exactly what is said of Yog-Sothoth in "The Dunwich Horror":
Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread.
- 2a.
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Re: Toro 'deploro'
Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au carteblanche13
Mon Nov 8, 2010 5:27 am (PST)
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , Tim Hartridge <ozpagan@...com > wrote:
>
>
> On 08/11/2010, at 4:15 PM, barbtrad wrote:
>
> > One bright spot is that occasionally.. far too occasionally
> > though.. the bull does manage to skewer Don Pedro on his horns..Saw
> > a video clip of just such occasion.. horn right up,the clacker of a
> > bull baiter and the bull parading Manual around squarking his guts
> > out (literally).
>
>
> Thanks Bill and Scott. Yeah, you know, I have no problem with human
> impalement by an angry Bull, or throwing the proverbial christian to
> the Lions (...so few Lions, so many...). It feels as though the 'deck-
> is-stacked' against these animals, and all for human entertainment.
>
> vinum sabbati,
> Tim
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Bloody barbaric pagan traditions, I tell you!
I too am strongly repulsed by the thought of an animal being tormented and injured like this. A rational individual would not do it alone, it is only under the maddening influence of the crowd that such things occur to non-psychopaths. Only then is it possible to objectify something to the extent necessary for this act.
On the one hand, I think this is perhaps the only reasonable reaction to such a spectacle - one of empathy and outrage at needless pain of a creature. On the other hand, how is this different from what animals suffer at the hands of non-human tormentors in the wild - as deigned by Nature? A fox will enter a chicken coop and kill or maim literally everything in it for sheer sport, even if it contains fifty birds, and may - or may not - bother taking a mere one or two of them away with it to eat, after killing them all. Even the best-fed cat can be particularly sadistic to anything it happens to notice. A single hornet will enter a beehive and decapitate as many as 30,000 bees in an hour, for no apparent reason.
The only mistake in the equation is the presumption of human "betterness" - because our "worseness" clearly equals, or exceeds in cruelty that of any other known phenomenon.
I do think we could convince these people to replace this barbaric hangover from Mithraic times to something more in keeping with modern Western sensibilities, sense, and sophistication - whilst celebrating our superior skill, intelligence and power over animals, and maintaining a dignified respect and admiration for their energy and character - as well as a total absence of any harm or stress occurring to any member of their species: The streets of Spanish towns are normally narrow and tall. They could easily be rigged with projectors and assorted holographic jiggery-pokery to produce, at the traditional times, the illusion of a fabulous bull with horns ablaze stampeding through the city. It would be miraculous, and maintain the spirit of the cult-like veneration which the beast has always maintained in that sunniest of peninsulas, and in the imaginations of its inhabitants.
- 3a.
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Re: Tradition
Posted by: "carteblanche13" carteblanche13@yahoo.com.au carteblanche13
Mon Nov 8, 2010 6:13 am (PST)
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "barbtrad" <barbtrad@..com .> wrote:
>
> Hi CB.
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@com > wrote:
> >
> > Dear Bill,
> >
> > Further thoughts (ignore ad libitum!):
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@com > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Bill
> > >
> > > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "barbtrad" <barbtrad@> wrote:com
> > > >
> > > > HI c.B.
> > > >
> > > > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@com > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Changed because we don't much like the way the place is run, nor those running it. Don't like the way we are completely powerless to change anything of any real significance. What we have is the choice every few years to choose which bunch of arseholes will govern us.. and that's our lot mate.. like it or lump it!
> >
> > Most of our pagan ancestors had even less say in the matter - and even in the less despotic democratic situations there would have been cliques and corruption.
>
>
> Well I'd have to agree to disagree on that. You see I'm no fan of democracy it always ends up a majority, often a quite small one ruling a minority, again often a big one. Now the remedy for this is constitutions to safeguard some basic rights of minorities.. yep the US made a valiant effort to create one.. the Brits had a reasonable stab at it, sadly neither made the grade as time and circumstance changed and successive govts greedily weakened them in grabs for more and more power over the people. Poor old Australia never even attempted to secure anyone's rights ours is more about trade between states than anything else.
>
> Now lets compare the options available to today's disgruntled citizen and those available to one of a more ancient system. The disgruntled, disenfranchised citizen today can .. well suck it up really as they don't have much redress.. OK they can.. provided they are allowed to .. emigrate. Not really much of an option as unless they go to some Hell Hole even less well run than here, will wind up under an identical system. That's your lot mate.
>
> Our ancient, who most likely lived under tribal rule or later a fealty system actually had a choice. Reckon the chief is a bum hole? Righto.. kill the bugger and take over...Don't reckon the Prince, King. Duke or whatever is living up to his part of the fealty bargain? Well yes you could kill that bugger too.. a lot less likely to work because if you do, another member of his dynasty/family will step up to the plate forthwith.. and probably do you unspeakable mischief for bumping off their relly.. But you can leave.. set up your own fiefedom in the vast uninhabited wilds that were .. in those days.. abundant..Of course your first few years would be rather difficult what with fighting off wandering tribes, outlaws etc and all the while trying to breed your own dynasty. Yep most succumbed, but some did succeed and if sufficient foresight and planning were done.. you did stand a reasonable chance..To me and OK I know many wont agree, but both the tribal remedy and that dealing with a tyrannical aristocracy spell real freedom.
Dear Bill,
I understand your disgruntledness regarding the mob rule and definitive pragmatic compromise which democracy comports. But your explanation above doesn't hold water, whether as a collection of facts, or as an argument.
What I mean by this is that what you have described is in fact what has already happened, and the result is what we have now. The fiefdoms which those free people set up by leaving their oppressors, these became so successful at being independent that they ended up with armies which were able to claim on their behalf the wilds around them, before others did, thus ensuring their independence from them. That's what a country is.
Rather than "kill the bugger", we simply vote them out of office, as under modern law and in our sort of world there is no longer much risk that he will attempt to kill you in retaliation for being honest about your evaluation of him and subsequent demotion.
What you describe is in fact democracy of a sort, but it is the gangster sort. We know that various mafias control everything these days - they always have and always will. It is how human beings operate in every country on the globe, and have throughout all history. You are proposing that instead of an election, we have a coup d'etat where the man with the best weapons and biggest chip on his shoulder wins. That philosophy has shaped the political scene in the Middle East for a long time - obviously people like Saddam Hussein, and the post-revolution government of the Islamic Republic of Iran come to mind, as it is how they came to power, not to serve the people, but to serve themselves.
That is how all despots come in to power (both good and bad), and it has nothing whatever to do with making a more successful society than is available with democracy. All it comes down to is who pays the biggest army, and on this bit of dirt, the Australian Government pays it. That army is potent enough to go to any bit of dirt, sky or water within the territory which it (by original instigation of the British Empire) claims, and enforce the regulations which the government wants it to.
That is in no way different from you claiming that bit of the wilderness you were fantasising about retiring to, and deciding that it is yours and anyone settling within its borders has to abide by your rules, not bother you or eachother, and leave your stuff alone. It is an identical thing.
Ultimately nothing belongs to anyone anyway beyond their ability to claim and keep it, which ends with death. I think Democracy is easily the most embarassing form of government after Communist dictatorship, with "benign god-Emperor" being the ideal. But my ideal god-emperor is likely to differ from yours or hers, so a compromise becomes necessary to stop us from wasting our lives in pointless conflict and instead to get on with what's left of life (once you remove fear for your safety and the desire to eliminate differing viewpoints by violence or coercion) - which I would like to think is most of it.
C.B.
> > I'd like to add a correction here, to what I wrote:
> >
> > > I think that anyone anywhere who has developed particular parts of themselves in the spiritual dimension through magical and mystical practise of whatever kind will have far more in common with eachother, regardless of heredity, than [>>they would with] members of the same tribe or even family who have no magical experience at all, which is usually the majority.
>
>
> Again I'll have to agree to disagree.. for us the blood and heritage is the all. that and.. past present and future seen as the one is what it all about for us...Common experience or adherence just means.. well.. bugger all really.
> >
> >
> >
> > > > We believe its all completely tied together. There is past, present and future, but they are all part of the one ..Damn hard to put in a few words without sounding like some sort of Eastern claptrap.
> >
> > The thought occurs to me now that your/our ancestors probably got it from the East originally, anyway! But we'll never know for sure.
>
>
> CB I think you have just got my ancestors rolling about in fits of rage in their graves :-)The Eastern folk weren't too popular with them.. tended to put them up for the night in some quite inventive ways. Not too keen on their spiritual views either from what I know.
> >
> >
> >
> > > >Something solid to cling to when the world around us seems to be turning to lunacy and a great engine running on bullshit and producing producing things we detest.
> >
> > Archbishop Pell says the same thing. I believe the president of The Islamic Republic of Iran agrees with both of you on this - and yet you'd probably all burn eachother alive as heretics if you could.
>
> Yeah probably:-) perhaps not for reasons of heresy though.. Pell because we don't like him much and his record re child abuse in the church stinks to high heaven .. actually his beliefs don't matter much to us one way or 'tuther
>
> Our Iranian mate because he poses a real and present threat to the safety of my kin and loved ones..Hell I don't care if he believes Allah is coming personally to take him to paradise and his well earned virgins.
> >
> > The direction of the Great Work is said to be a penetration, fructification or transmutation of Nature (Reality), not a denial or rejection of Her.
>
> Depends on the great work methinks? Mine might not concur with yours nor yours with Fred down the road
>
> But I agree - in terms of the new global industrial human society, we're still clutching at straws.
> >
> > Perhaps it's just "growing pains" - something to be weathered, but with a "forward escape" mentality?
>
> A profound conundrum indeed. Is there an escape? And is that to become deeply entangled in the ecology of this realm.. which is.. after all doomed beyond saving by anything we do? Or is that escape only possible by transcending this realm before it is destroyed by the natural decay of our solar system?
>
> Yes indeed befouling our nest is certainly not the way to go.. but trying to make a spirituality based on just common sense caring for where we live? Just cant see it. I see little if any real answers in modern paganism.. in fact a lot of it is really just a crock. I do agree with you that adhering only to the past without an eye to the present and future wont solve anything either..For me.. its retaining the values of our past while still benefiting from the Panadol and other good things humans have discovered/invented..And not just sitting still, but striving for more inventions, more advances.. all within the framework of our ancient values.
> >
> > Best regards..Likewise.
>
> Bill.
> >
> > C.B.
> >
>
- 3b.
-
Re: Tradition
Posted by: "barbtrad" barbtrad@yahoo.com.au barbtrad
Mon Nov 8, 2010 2:38 pm (PST)
--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups. , "carteblanche13" <carteblanche13@com ...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Bill
> > > >
> > > > > Changed because we don't much like the way the place is run, nor those running it. Don't like the way we are completely powerless to change anything of any real significance. What we have is the choice every few years to choose which bunch of arseholes will govern us.. and that's our lot mate.. like it or lump it!
> > >
> > > Most of our pagan ancestors had even less say in the matter - and even in the less despotic democratic situations there would have been cliques and corruption.
> >
> >
> > Well I'd have to agree to disagree on that. You see I'm no fan of democracy it always ends up a majority, often a quite small one ruling a minority, again often a big one. Now the remedy for this is constitutions to safeguard some basic rights of minorities.. yep the US made a valiant effort to create one.. the Brits had a reasonable stab at it, sadly neither made the grade as time and circumstance changed and successive govts greedily weakened them in grabs for more and more power over the people. Poor old Australia never even attempted to secure anyone's rights ours is more about trade between states than anything else.
> >
> > Now lets compare the options available to today's disgruntled citizen and those available to one of a more ancient system. The disgruntled, disenfranchised citizen today can .. well suck it up really as they don't have much redress.. OK they can.. provided they are allowed to .. emigrate. Not really much of an option as unless they go to some Hell Hole even less well run than here, will wind up under an identical system. That's your lot mate.
> >
> > Our ancient, who most likely lived under tribal rule or later a fealty system actually had a choice. Reckon the chief is a bum hole? Righto.. kill the bugger and take over...Don't reckon the Prince, King. Duke or whatever is living up to his part of the fealty bargain? Well yes you could kill that bugger too.. a lot less likely to work because if you do, another member of his dynasty/family will step up to the plate forthwith.. and probably do you unspeakable mischief for bumping off their relly.. But you can leave.. set up your own fiefedom in the vast uninhabited wilds that were .. in those days.. abundant..Of course your first few years would be rather difficult what with fighting off wandering tribes, outlaws etc and all the while trying to breed your own dynasty. Yep most succumbed, but some did succeed and if sufficient foresight and planning were done.. you did stand a reasonable chance..To me and OK I know many wont agree, but both the tribal remedy and that dealing with a tyrannical aristocracy spell real freedom.
>
>
> Dear Bill,
>
> I understand your disgruntledness regarding the mob rule and definitive pragmatic compromise which democracy comports. But your explanation above doesn't hold water, whether as a collection of facts, or as an argument.
>
> What I mean by this is that what you have described is in fact what has already happened, and the result is what we have now.
Now to that I'd argue that what we have now is not the result of that system.. which in fact wasn't any system at all, but a philosophy in the hearts and minds of people.. admittedly a philosophy that could only be put into practice in a situation of under, rather than over population.
The driving force that resulted in what we have now, was also a philosophy in the hearts and minds of people and is fairly well documented in the change that occurred when ancient Greeks changed their religious adherence to the cult of Appollo. The earlier Baccanalians discouraged any sort of ruling class having too tight a hold over the populace. ie restricting freedom.
The fiefdoms which those free people set up by leaving their oppressors, these became so successful at being independent that they ended up with armies which were able to claim on their behalf the wilds around them, before others did, thus ensuring their independence from them. That's what a country is.
I agree in part. But a lot of countries came into being by invasion and annexation carried out by the servants of power mad expansionist leaders of countries where power not freedom reigned supreme. ie Roman Empire , British Empire etc. And while the philosophy doesn't sit well with me, the practical advantages are pretty obvious.
An example IMO, is the Australian Aboriginal people. Now no one can say their pre English settlement existence was, on a practical level, in any way idyllic, but on another level perhaps it was. They certainly had a choice of both the remedies I previously mentioned.. Kill the bugger or bugger off remedies. And they certainly had plenty of space to bugger off to.
OK they didn't have Panadol for their headaches, nor a lot of other benefits the "White Devils" brought along with them, but they did have a peace in their hearts none of us have now.. a peace that can only come with security which can only come from freedom..And I mean real freedom not the illusion of it we have. Now this "lifestyle" has a big downside. You say that successfully independent breakaways result in armies.. Cannot agree. Only successfully cohesive populations result in armies. Yes armies do offer a degree of security and people who have an independent non cohesive society are vulnerable to invasion and annexation by a foreign power because they do not have the (abhorrent to us) central government required to pay for and organize armies.
I guess you can't have it both ways, but I'd seek a good balance betwixt the two systems. The central govt system was epitomized IMO by the Roman Empire, while the "tuther at its best was under the "Fealty" system.
>
> Rather than "kill the bugger", we simply vote them out of office, as under modern law and in our sort of world there is no longer much risk that he will attempt to kill you in retaliation for being honest about your evaluation of him and subsequent demotion.
>
> What you describe is in fact democracy of a sort, but it is the gangster sort. We know that various mafias control everything these days - they always have and always will. It is how human beings operate in every country on the globe, and have throughout all history.
Agreed in recent times.. disputed in the case of our ancients. A thought provoking and quite true little story about "Mafias" might fit in here:
The Italian Mafia ran the casinos in Nevada for years. It was no secret everyone knew they did. Now a crusading State govt decided they would clean up the gambling industry and uproot the naughty Mafia. Right! But when the mafia did run the show winners were very unlikely to be mugged as they left the casino.. when the Mafia was driven out the crime rate soared. Go figure!
You are proposing that instead of an election, we have a coup d'etat where the man with the best weapons and biggest chip on his shoulder wins.
Not really, although the prospect of politicians that made monkeys of us being , not just voted out, but tarred and feathered and ridden out of office on a rail does hold a lot of appeal:-)
That philosophy has shaped the political scene in the Middle East for a long time - obviously people like Saddam Hussein, and the post-revolution government of the Islamic Republic of Iran come to mind, as it is how they came to power, not to serve the people, but to serve themselves.
But CB, can we really completely separate the motivations of the Husseins and the Gillards? Aren't both seeking power over their people to push their own agendas even if that is at the expense of the living standards of their people? Only difference is one uses the machine gun, the other the propaganda machine.
>
> That is how all despots come in to power (both good and bad), and it has nothing whatever to do with making a more successful society than is available with democracy. All it comes down to is who pays the biggest army, and on this bit of dirt, the Australian Government pays it. That army is potent enough to go to any bit of dirt, sky or water within the territory which it (by original instigation of the British Empire) claims, and enforce the regulations which the government wants it to.
Yep!
>
> That is in no way different from you claiming that bit of the wilderness you were fantasising about retiring to, and deciding that it is yours and anyone settling within its borders has to abide by your rules, not bother you or eachother, and leave your stuff alone. It is an identical thing.
Yes It is an unrealistic dream..Agreed. But that dream is what our particular brand of "Paganism" is all about. Its not that any of us really believe we, or even our children's children will ever see it.But who said it I cannot remember, but something about " if man can dream it.. then it can be done" Man dreamed about flying to the moon, so paint me pink and call me Sally, the dream became reality!
>
> Ultimately nothing belongs to anyone anyway beyond their ability to claim and keep it, which ends with death.
Or.. the establishment of a benevolent dynasty.. just perhaps? One that in generations to come may even be regarded as Gods??
I think Democracy is easily the most embarassing form of government after Communist dictatorship, with "benign god-Emperor" being the ideal. But my ideal god-emperor is likely to differ from yours or hers, so a compromise becomes necessary to stop us from wasting our lives in pointless conflict and instead to get on with what's left of life (once you remove fear for your safety and the desire to eliminate differing viewpoints by violence or coercion) - which I would like to think is most of it.
A lot of good points in that paragraph CB. Coincides with a lot of our thinking. To attain the perfect government.. "First find the perfect person.. then make them an absolute dictator"
>
> C.B.
Hells Bells CB I haven't enjoyed such a good debate for ages.. Thanks and all the best to you...Bill.
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WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
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http://www.witchesworkshop.com
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The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
to these principles & to notify owner.
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