Messages In This Digest (5 Messages)
- 1a.
- Re: On Karma & the "Rule of Three" From: LorriePaige
- 1b.
- Re: On Karma & the "Rule of Three" From: Blackbird
- 1c.
- Re: On Karma & the "Rule of Three" From: Ladyhawke
- 1d.
- Re: On Karma & the "Rule of Three" From: Blackbird
- 2a.
- Re: The Bubishi and Witchcraft - A short cross-disciplinary Essay From: ~T'rosy~
Messages
- 1a.
-
Re: On Karma & the "Rule of Three"
Posted by: "LorriePaige" anindigogirl@yahoo.com anindigogirl
Wed Jul 6, 2011 7:24 pm (PDT)
I agree with Gaia....
In every kind of living, there are rules--like them or not. Be it laws of government or laws of nature. To poo-poo all rules will land a person in deep trouble.
I find it interesting when I hear witches always using spells and/or complaining about their life's problems...a witch going by nature's laws will rarely have problems in their life and will VERY RARELY use spellwork, as when a witch goes with the laws of nature they will not need to use spellwork as things will naturally turn out wonderful every day in their life 99% of the time. They will only need to use spellwork to help others less fortunate....I have found this is true through my own research, through experienced, very knowledgeable witches, and more and more in my own life. I rarely need to use spells.
Lorrie
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , Ladyhawke <ladyhawke.karen@com ...> wrote:
>
> LOL
>
> To me the rule of 3 smacks too closely to tenants of other religion's
> rules.
> Maybe as a form of control?
> Maybe to make Wicca look better. (as in: Hey! Wiccans can't be all that bad,
> after all: whatever they do comes back to them 3 times!)
>
> Whatever the truth may be, I don't think the rule of 3 was stated that way
> as a matter of convenience in explaining the principle of energetic returns.
>
> karen
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 9:03 AM, gaia_d <Gaia_D@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Since this subject has arisen lately, i'd like to make a few comments:
> >
> > The idea of "Karma" is not necessarily a part of Wicca, but many Wiccans
> > have "adapted" it -- Albeit, without really understanding it!
> >
> > Karma is *NOT* any sort of "punishment" for bad deeds and "reward" for good
> > deeds --
> >
> > That's a faulty understanding of the principle.
> >
> > Karma is instead, the NATURAL CONSEQUENCES of whatever intentions, deeds,
> > and emotions --
> >
> > Think of it as the "economy" of the Universe: Whatever we send out, returns
> > to us -- NOT in "reward" or "punishment", but because that is what we have
> > PROMOTED and "sown" (made grow) into the Universe.
> >
> > And the idea that it must always be "three times" what we've sent out, is
> > again, a FAULTY understanding of the principle --
> >
> > For *convenience* the principle has been named, "The Rule of Three", but
> > it's no "rule" and it's not always "three times".
> >
> > It's important to do some study of the principles we hear passed around --
> > especially from more experienced, knowledgeable and/or well-trained folks,
> > rather than other beginners who may not know much more than we do, but are
> > just repeating what they've heard in chats or discussion groups, from OTHER
> > beginners --
> >
> > Blessed Be -
> > ~Gaia
> >
> >
> >
>
- 1b.
-
Re: On Karma & the "Rule of Three"
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Wed Jul 6, 2011 9:36 pm (PDT)
Hi All,
If I may, I would like to add my 2 Cents to this particular Discussion.
First off I would recommend to anyone interested in this discussion to
check at their local library and see if they can find the following
Teaching Company Lectures.
A History of World Philosophy V2 (Disks 7 to 12) Kathleen Higgins.
Great World Religions: Buddhism. Malcolm David Eckel.
Great World Religions: Hinduism Mark W. Muesse.
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , Ladyhawke <ladyhawke.karen@com ...>
wrote:
Karma isn't a bank account. You don't "do" something and get it back 3
times. ...
BB re:
Uhm ... Yes and No, but more No...
Actually Karma is very much like a Bank account, or more precisely as
Gaia Stated the Economy of the Universe.
So lets start at the very beginning.
Karma is of course intimately linked with the doctrine, or belief in the
Transmigration of Souls, something most Pagans in my experience embrace;
and which I strongly believe in myself; but to truly understand Karma
and it's linkage to the concept of Transmigration of the Soul, we must
return to the Indian sub continent and look at the doctrine through the
eyes of those who created it ...
I believe it's fair to say most Pagans Embrace the Transmigration of
Souls, we look to the process of Birth/Death/Rebirth as a cycle of
infinite possibilities where-in the soul learns grows, and ultimately
returns to the source.
And while this is in many ways true of the Eastern Religions; It is not
true in one profoundly important aspect; the eastern religions do not
embrace the process of Transmigration, instead they view the soul as
trapped in an unending process of Samsara
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > ; where-in the soulSa%E1%B9% 83s%C4%81ra
is repeatedly forced to wander in this world of Illusion or Maya
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ (illusion)> .Maya_
So the goal of the Eastern Religions is not so much the return to Source
as Western Pagans envision it; but to escape from Samasara. that is the
ultimate object of a spiritual life ... and how is this achieved?
Now the concepts of Karma <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > andKarma
Dharma <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ (Buddhism)> come into play.Dharma_
We cannot properly understand Karma, if we do not first understand
Dharma, and that is a very Deep Concept; on the one hand it can quite
accurately be described as;
Dharma <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > : that which upholds orDharma
supports; Dharma means Law or Natural Law (as in the natural order of
things) and is a concept of central importance in Indian philosophy and
religion. In the context of Hinduism, it refers to one's personal
obligations, calling and duties,[1] and a Hindu's dharma is affected by
the person's age, caste, class, occupation, and gender.[2] In modern
Indian languages it can refer simply to a person's religion, depending
on the context.
For the purpose of our Discussion I would like simplify the notion of
Dharma to simply that of a Pattern. Dr Higgins uses this example; if we
imagine the pattern of our daily lives as waves washing up on a beach,
over time, the action of the waves sculpts a pattern in the sand beneath
those waves. The Waves are the Dharma, and the Sand, our Karma.
When we pass out of this world, it is the Pattern of our Karma that
dooms us to rebirth, and thus the goal in say Buddhism is to still the
Waves, still the waves of Grief, and Joy; Lust and Love, and all other
Attachments that bind us to this world; so that when we pass out of this
life, our Pattern is null our Karma extinguished and we pass into
Paranirvana <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > and thus escapeParanirvana
the endless cycle of Samsara.1
I think it would be instructive here to compare the story of Lazarus of
Bethany <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > with a story of theLazarus
Buddha. As nearly every reader will know the story of Lazarus is
presented in the Gospel of John, in which Lazarus, the brother of Mary
and Martha, falls Ill and word is sent to Jesus; who does not come
immediately; so it comes to pass that Jesus arrives in Bethany only to
find Lazarus has been dead for 4 days; Jesus weeps, but then goes to the
Tomb of his Friend and calls him forth; and Lazarus still wearing his
'grave clothes' emerges from his tomb.
Compare that now to this tale of the Buddha, which I will present to you
as best I can.
Now the Buddha came to a certain village, where in recently an infant
had died, and the mother mad with grief did carry the corpse of the
child about with her everywhere she went seeking a healer to 'Awaken'
her child. On hearing that the Buddha had come to her village, she of
course came to him, and pleaded with him to awaken her child.
The Buddha said that he would honor her request, but first she must
bring to him a person whose life had gone untouched by death. So the
woman went to every house in the Village, great and small and asked
every person she did meet; but she could not find the person whose life
had been untouched by death, there was No Man who had not lost a Mother,
a Father a Spouse, no Woman who had not lost a Child, a Husband, a
Mother, no child who had not lost a sibling. As Twilight came the woman
returned to the Buddha, She told him what I have related to you, then
she thanked him, and took her child away to honor his death and properly
bury him.
I mention this because you see ...
By Raising Lazarus Yeshua would have of course created a great Karmic
Debt, Yes his action was "Good" as we judge good, but it would also
certainly have been a great wave on our beach. ... The Universe does not
care about our judgements of Good or Ill, rather it is the unbiased
Dharma of the Universe to seek Balance. (at least with-in the context
of this world view.)
While the Buddha did not disturb the balance of what is and will be,
rather he opened the eyes of the Mother, that her Grief was not a lonely
Grief; but her portion of the greater grief we all share in this world
of Samsara. In both stories the Question is Death, but the Answers are
profoundly different.
We began this discussion with Ziggy's Question about her own Karmic Debt
for the ritual she may have been guided to perform at 8 years old, and
it's consequences.
With-in my own limited knowledge and judgment of such things, I would
have to say, yes you would have incurred some Karmic Debt; but as it
apparently was/is not your habit, your pattern, your Dharma to use
Magick to cause people harm, or to seek revenge in this world. I would
say your lone act, would be like a lone wave on the beach, it will
splash around, perhaps shift some stones; but in and of itself it will
not reshape the beach. It is the Larger pattern of your life; your
Dharma that you need concern yourself with in the end.
I hope this post has been helpful.
Brightest Blessings, BB.
--------------------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
1. Of course some readers will know that I am over simplifying here,
that according to the Buddhist Doctrine of No Self, there is nothing we
can really describe as a Soul; only the constantly evolving pattern of
the Dharma; but that is much too complex a debate to get into here.
- 1c.
-
Re: On Karma & the "Rule of Three"
Posted by: "Ladyhawke" ladyhawke.karen@gmail.com yerb5
Thu Jul 7, 2011 1:45 am (PDT)
"Ziggy's question was:
Now my question to you or anyone out there. Since I was only 8 yrs old and
didn't know about harm none. What do you think? Will I have bad karma? Will
this come back on me in the future 3 times or do we as Wiccans have a
defence system?"
My reply was no.. it won't come back to you three times. And that I didn't
believe in the Rule of Three. I never said there wasn't an energetic
return. Just that it doesn't come back three times.
If you believe in the Rule of Three.. Then it happens 3 times. Three is
equal to three, every time!
Otherwise it would be called the Rule of 1/2 to 3.
Like when someone thinks about doing something a lot, plans it, build energy
just by the the energy of thought, and then never actually presses the
button to MAKE it happen..but it happens because of the energy already built
up, maybe that's only a 1.5 return? LOL
karen
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Blackbird <blackbird_61@yahoo.com > wrote:
> .. Hi All,We began this discussion with Ziggy's Question about her own
> Karmic Debt..
>
With-in my own limited knowledge and judgment of such things, I would have
> to say, yes you would have incurred some Karmic Debt; but as it apparently
> was/is not your habit, your pattern, your Dharma to use Magick to cause
> people harm, or to seek revenge in this world. I would say your lone act,
> would be like a lone wave on the beach, it will splash around, perhaps shift
> some stones; but in and of itself it will not reshape the beach. It is the
> Larger pattern of your life; your Dharma that you need concern yourself with
> in the end.
>
> I hope this post has been helpful.
>
> Brightest Blessings, BB.
>
> --------------------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
> 1. Of course some readers will know that I am over simplifying here, that
> according to the Buddhist Doctrine of No Self, there is nothing we can
> really describe as a Soul; only the constantly evolving pattern of the
> Dharma; but that is much too complex a debate to get into here.
>
>
>
- 1d.
-
Re: On Karma & the "Rule of Three"
Posted by: "Blackbird" blackbird_61@yahoo.com blackbird_61
Thu Jul 7, 2011 2:06 am (PDT)
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , Ladyhawke <ladyhawke.karen@com ...>
wrote:
>
Re: [Witch_Essentials] Re: On Karma & the "Rule of Three"
"Ziggy's question was:
Now my question to you or anyone out there. Since I was only 8 yrs old
and didn't know about harm none. What do you think? Will I have bad
karma? Will this come back on me in the future 3 times or do we as
Wiccans have a defence system?"
My reply was no.. it won't come back to you three times. And that I
didn't believe in the Rule of Three. I never said there wasn't an
energetic return. Just that it doesn't come back three times.
If you believe in the Rule of Three.. Then it happens 3 times. Three is
equal to three, every time!
Otherwise it would be called the Rule of 1/2 to 3.
Like when someone thinks about doing something a lot, plans it, build
energy just by the the energy of thought, and then never actually
presses the button to MAKE it happen..but it happens because of the
energy already built up, maybe that's only a 1.5 return? LOL
karen
BB re: Please do understand I was taking the oppertunity to use your
Bank Account Analogy as a jumping off point, but I was not in any way
trying to dis your position. Which you made quite clear in a post I
approved, but seems to have gotten lost in cyberspace. My bad I expect,
things have been malfunctioning around me all week; I seem to have my
own personal Mercury Rx going on just now. No I actually agree with
the detail of your position, as I think my larger post makes clear, if
the Buddhists are right, and I think they are about this issue; it is
the Dharma of the Universe to seek balance, the rule of 3 taken
literally would create a very unbalanced universe that inheriently over
reacted to any energy put into it's system; and I dont believe that is
the case; but of course ... the world is a bit more complex in that
as Chaos theory tells us A butterfly beating its wings in Africa under
just the right circumstances can create the imbalance that grows into a
Hurrican, but a Hurrican (or any storm really) is the process by which
nature rebalances herself. So while Balance is the ultimate Dharma, the
road taken to get there might lead us through Katrina. Blessings, BB.
- 2a.
-
Re: The Bubishi and Witchcraft - A short cross-disciplinary Essay
Posted by: "~T'rosy~" rosyrock1968@yahoo.com.au rosyrock1968
Thu Jul 7, 2011 3:18 am (PDT)
I've read tarot for myself and others for many years and I suppose I connect most closely with the idea of the Norns (the Norse fates) and the whole concept of the Wyrd and the Orlog. There's just something about how the whole energy of Tarot reading taps into that for me. I feel my connection to the source mainly in the solar plexus area - but I do also relate to the concept of the energy flowing into the hands as heat because I tend to direct the flow there myself when I undertake my own energy work.
As for the Mythic and RW Tarot, to me there's a bit of a difference between the suits of Pentacles in both. I honestly feel that all is not as it seems in the RW 9 and 10 of Pents - there's a certain shift that to me speaks of a greatness of riches, yes, but a poverty of spirit. There's something about the isolated look of the woman in the 9 and the disconnectedness of the family grouping in the 10. I see riches yes, but other sorts of happiness? Maybe not so much. That big house, the fine clothes and landscaped gardens have brought so much - but conversely, delivered less than expected?
In the Mythic deck, Daedalus seems to have fallen on his feet in the 10 of Pentacles despite the fact that his deeds, creations and inventions caused great negativity. I suppose (and this is said *tongue in cheek*) the Orlog (or Primal law) of the Mythic Tarot Suit was enough to over ride Daedalus' own personal Wyrd (or karma) in the long run.
rosy
_____________________ _________ __
From: Blackbird <blackbird_61@yahoo.com >
To: Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Wednesday, 6 July 2011 11:02 AM
Subject: [Witch_Essentials] Re: The Bubishi and Witchcraft - A short cross-disciplinary Essay
BB re:
Thanks as a big fan of Liz Greene it's odd that I don't myself own the Mythic Tarot, but thanks for the reminder that I need to address that oversight; as too the Vision of the 3 of Pents as the apprentice, I cannot honestly lay claim to that insight myself; Credit for that insight, to the best of my knowledge belongs to Melanie Gendron, The 3 of Pents in the Gendron Tarot clearly shows a Father and Son/ so the Father/Son, Master/Apprentice connection was an easy one; it was only after seeing the Gendron that I was able to look at the Waite with new eyes and make that connection.
But while I am here again,
Yesterday I was browsing books at Borders and I stumbled on this Quote, In his The Essential Karate Book Graeme Lund, says, "One of the problems the Westerner face when doing Karate is that their minds are not geared to learn from acts or from instruction. Western education has been the product of books, notes and research in libraries and on the internet ... "
Of course this resonates perfectly with Gaia's oft repeated; and totally correct; assertion one cannot learn Witchcraft from a book; both The Craft and Karate are experiential disciplines, they are things that can only be learned by doing. A few years ago now, I was telling a Musician friend of mine; how I was doing my daily forms which included at that time several repetitions of Gojushi-ho 'Earth and Sky' as I learned it;1 which included towards the end of the form a x-block, Reverse Punch; Sequence, and I performed the Reverse Punch so perfectly; it was like I had never thrown a reverse punch before at all. Now my musician friend (a drummer) knew of course I had thrown thousands of such punches in my life; but he also intimately understood what I was saying, because he had had similar moments in his musical 'career'; moments when everything just came together so perfectly and you knew for a moment, or a night, for just one song; Damn you got it
right; you're just in the groove.
My point is of course, you can read 1000 books on Karate, watch Karate Kid 100 times; but that will never teach you what it feels like to throw a Reverse punch; and only hundreds if not thousands of repetitions will teach you what a Perfectly thrown reverse punch feels like; or what it feels like to play a perfect riff; some things you just have to do.
Returning to The Craft;
At one point in my 'career' as a reader I was reading Tarotat least weeklyand after that long time I began to feel the energy flowing through the cards into my hands as I did the invocation of Innana; another year later another reading as I passed my hands over the cards, One could feel the energy of the spread; like a blanket of Static over the spread.
Today I can generally tell how accurate a reading will be simply by the heat in my hands as I invoke Innana; It's a experiential thing that no amount of messages I could post will truly make anyone truly feel what I am speaking to; and it might not be your experiance at all; my good friend Matt; who I look to as a much more talented reader than myself; has a completely differnt experiance when a reading is on for him; a sense of vibration deep with-in himself; that I really cant describe in great detail but which he has described for me a few times; and of course your own experiance might well be completely different, only your own practice will tell..
and that seems like a good place to end this post.
Brightest Blessings, BB.
--------------------- -----
1. I should honestly say that while I have looked, I have never found an example of Gojushi-ho on U-tube or other sights; where it is performed as I was taught the form, and which includes this sequence. The form as I was taught it does appear in a now very old book, Karate's Modern Masters, performed by Sensi Frank Mitchell.
--- In Witch_Essentials@yahoogroups. , ~T'rosy~ <rosyrock1968@com ...> wrote:
>
Re: [Witch_Essentials] The Bubishi and Witchcraft - A short cross-disciplinary Essay
The story of the jealous master killing the apprentice who outshines him also ties in with the Mythic Tarot. In the suit of Pentacles (which tells the myth of Daedalus) a craftsman kills his nephew, who is also his apprentice, out of jealousy when his nephew's talents as a craftsman surpass his own.
It was great to glean this insight in the Universal Waite Three of Pents too - and see another chapter of the Miser unfold there...
rosy
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