vineri, 15 octombrie 2010

[WitchesWorkshop] Digest Number 4548

Messages In This Digest (9 Messages)

Messages

1a.

Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion

Posted by: "a2zamethyst58" amethyst@oakandmistletoe.com.au   a2zamethyst58

Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:18 am (PDT)



Thanks Frances for your comments. Appreciated.
In terms of the info supplied to the ATO about our claim, I have deliv=beratly pointed out to them the underpinning tenets of ecelectic Wicca and have made it very clear that what we do is not always representative of other Wiccan groups/covens/temples. I have never suggested that our group represents all groups but rather that we have a middle of the road approach/eclectic apporach to the fundamentals of Wicca.

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "frances_tdm" <lunanoire1@...> wrote:
>
> Greetigns Amethyst et all
>
> Amethyst wrote:
>
> > .... when I first made the submission to the ATO last year, I naively assumed that many other Wiccan groups had done it before
>
> By this comment, I take it you are referring to covens as opposed to actual Pagan organisations such as PAN Inc, CAW, or even PASA etc. The answer to your assumption may lie in the fact that the majority of covens (at least that I am aware of or have been a part of) have been a tad too small to constitute a "congregation" in the eyes of the ATO, and whose members have not been at all interested in claiming tax exceptions etc
In terms thereafter if any other Wiccan groups also seek the concession then of course they would not have to adhere to our view of Wicca. That is not what I have said to the ATO but rather that all covens/temples/groups approach Wicca in differnt ways. However, assuming the sum=bmission is accepted, it will be easier to make a case for subsequent groups.

In terms of the services we provide, these are numerous to our students and to Wiccans and include considerable support in a variety of situations.

As a last comment in response to your own last comment Frances, let me make it very clear that I have not informed the ATO that cciwi"s view of Wicca is representative of all Wiccan groups. I have made it very clear that all groups/temples/covens have thjeir own view and are absoltuley entitled to that. I would not presume to speak on behalf of all Wiccans and have not done so. I have spoken on behalf of cciwi which if approved will help pave the way for other sizeable Wiccann groups to do the same if they want to.
Many regards as always,
Amethyst

>
> > I stupidly assumed that the ATO would see Wicca as a legit religion
>
> David has already pointed out that this aspect falls under the Australian Constitution - the only area the ATO has any pull is with respect to taxation.
>
>
> > A point of clarification for folks is that I've clearly stated "Wicca" as opposed to "Pagan" on the application
>
> Is this "Wicca" with respect to your own personal interpretation and thus how you have shaped your "church"? Or have you used some generalisation of what Wicca is? I ask because if you are, as you have stated, about to set precedents etc (even with respect to taxation law), would this then mean that any subsequent Wiccn groups would need to adopt the description of your own "church"?
>
>
> > ... the income we receive barely covers the costs of the services we give back to the Wiccan/Pagan community
>
> What services are these as I haven't seen any mentioned saved for what has been held at your place and the upcoming Bealtaine event?
>
> I don't know about your tradition/church, Amethyst, but as a HPs in my tradition I see part of my role is to be "of service" and therefore to serve. Yes, often this comes at a personal financial cost, but that is a small price to pay when you are "in service". Rarely do I get donations for the public gatherings I host and been running for a number of years. I hold these gatherings because it is part of my "service".
>
>
> I don't really understand your push for this taxation exemption, recognition etc but hey, if it's what you want, then all the best. Just make sure you specify these requirements relate to your "church" only and to be taken as a general assumption across the board - as I do have a Wiccan group. Further, as you are no doubt aware, very capable of speaking for myself.
>
> BB - Frances
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (16)
1b.

Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion

Posted by: "a2zamethyst58" amethyst@oakandmistletoe.com.au   a2zamethyst58

Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:51 am (PDT)



Hi David, answers for you below. (If this comes through twice I apologise. I typed it all and my dam connection crashed just as I hit send so not sure if it went through or not.)
Many smiles,
Amethyst

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "David Garland" <paninc@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Amethyst,
>
> Just to clarify, you have applied to become a Deductable Gift Recipient (DGR) so that people can claim on their tax for any donations that they have made to your organisation?

Yep. And to reduce tax on any oncome cciwi recieves as a religious institution under their charity clause.
>
> You have also applied for your Incorporated Association to be income tax exempt as a religious institution, so that you do not have to pay tax as an employee of the association?

Nope. I've applied (on behalf of cciwi as the Public Office)for tax concessions on any income the incorporated body might receive from membership fees or even donations. Having said that cciwi's income is squat and was no more than $200 last year but again it's the principle of the thing.
I need to emphasise here I am not an employee of cciwi or of any organisation come to that. cciwi doesn't have any employees. It doesn't pay employee wages, director fees or anything like that at all. Any and ALL funds it has go directly back to supporting students and members. I receive absolutley no (let me reinforce that - zero) income from either cciwi or from my coven. That has never been my aim and never will be. Quite the reverse in fact like virtually all leaders of covens/temples/Pagan groups I give my time free and I have also given a my own money as contribution. I pay member fees just like any other member. I donate candles, incense, money and so forth just like any other preistess might to her coven/group/temple/church.
>
> Neither of these will mean that the ATO will recognise Wicca as a religion, they will recognise your organisation as a religious institution, there is a huge difference, as a federal department the ATO is not allowed to recognise a religion under chapter 5 section 116 of the Australian Constitution. It is a very fine point that needs to be made clear that it is your institution CCIWI that is being recognised and not the Religion.

Good point David. However. the person at ATO supporting our claim has explained that in order to be recognised as a religious institution, the institution has to be part of a religion as it is described within Australian law. It is that point which has been the struggele.
>
> Any not for profit group can apply not to pay tax on the income they make, PAN Inc has never had to pay tax in its 13 years and we have a turnover of close to 50K a year. We would only have to pay tax if we paid the people on the board and that would be payroll and income tax.

Indeed and we could easily have gone down that road but I wanted to test their own regualtions as a religious institution.
>
> I am not sure but I think the Church of Wicca was the first recognised Wiccan Church in Australia in the late 80's and they may have, I can not confirm it, obtained the tax breaks associated with it, but alas the Church folded many years ago.

I checked this as well as once I realsied it wasn't as easy as I had origonally thought it would be, I thought CoW might be an good example to proivide to the ATO. However my own research showed that while they incorporated in WA, they did not seek or were not awarded tax concessions as a religious institutiton. I also found out that they revived themeselves a couple of years ago but not sure how active they are the moment.
>
> All of this aside I wish you well in your endeavours, and await with anticipation on your final response from the ATO.

I sincerely appreciate your well wishes. :)
>
> L&L
> David
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: a2zamethyst58
> To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:43 PM
> Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion
>
>
>
> Thanks Tim, appreciated.
> Happy to answer your questions and great ones they are. I'd also like to point out that when I first made the submission to the ATO last year, I naively assumed that many other Wiccan groups had done it before and that we were just following suit. I stupidly assumed that the ATO would see Wicca as a legit religion just like any other religion and had absolutely no idea I was breaking new ground.
> To answer your questions. You asked... Does this mean you will be recognised as a pagan religious institution? What do you feel this will mean for "Community Church of Inclusive Wicca Inc."?
> Good question. I've asked the ATO for income tax concessions as a religious organisation as well as for the ability to allow anyone who donates to claim their donation as a tax deductable donation on their own tax returns just like World Vision, Salvation Army and the myriad of other organisations that many of us donate to and then claim against our personal tax returns.
> A point of clarification for folks is that I've clearly stated "Wicca" as opposed to "Pagan" on the application as that focuses precisely on the religion supported by the Community Church of Wicca Inc. (cciwi) Apparently the ATO have never accepted Wicca as a legit religion before hence the length of time it's taken for the global investigation the ATO have done.
> It means that the ATO will recognise cciwi as a Wiccan (not Pagan per se but by association) religious institution but more importantly it means the ATO will recognise Wicca as a religion which will allow other Wiccan groups to follow suit and claim taxations concessions as well if they meet the practical requirements.
> What does it mean for cciwi? Financially it means we would not have to pay as much tax on any "income" we receive. Our main source of income is donations and membership fees and it would be fair to say that the income we receive barely covers the costs of the services we give back to the Wiccan/Pagan community but not having to pay as much tax on the miniscule money we do raise is a bonus.
> In addition, it also means we may receive more donations because people will be able to claim their donations against their personal tax return. To be honest, financially speaking it will mean squat as we have such a tiny income anyway but it may help our legitimacy in the religious landscape and it does raise the equality bar for Wicca.
> You also asked... "...ATO has not up until this point recognised Paganism as a valid religion under the existing interpretation of the taxation laws". What has changed to help make the difference?
> Again I would just clarify that the ATO is looking primarily at Wicca as the religion but with Paganism also by association. The ATO tells me that the court case in the Eastern states a couple of years ago in which the judge declared Wicca a religion did allot of good for our case. In addition, the recent change in the UK for the acceptance of Druidism also helped I'm told. I also had to answer a considerable barrage of questions over the last year about the fundamental tenets of Wicca as a religion from cciwi's point of view. I had to tell them about the central paradigms of Wicca (from cciwi's point of view I hasten to add which reflect a more eclectic rather than traditional form of Wicca). Things like the Rede, Law of Return and so forth. I also had to explain to them the 7 tenets that are the fundamentals of cciwi which uphold Wiccan principles and also supply cciwi's constitution. I also had to show them how Wicca is followed as a religion round the world and I had to explain to them how we view deity under the legal terminology of "higher existence". Lastly I had to show that we have a significant membership (what they called a congregation) base and that we run a legitimate incorporation with an elected leadership council and so forth. It has been a tonne of work I can tell you!
> I would point out if I may that my submission to the ATO explored and explained Wicca from cciwi's point of view which while eclectic I'd say we're also fairly representative of mainstream Wicca. With that said, let me reinforce that I do not see it as the representation of everyone's Wicca and I've made that very clear to the ATO. I have explained that like mainstream religions, we are just one "denomination" (their language) and that other practitioners will probably follow the same basic tenets but their practice will probably be different to ours.
> So for all Wiccans and of course by default Pagans, if it finally gets accepted this month after a year of discussions, it means many other Wiccan and by association Pagan groups will hopefully have a clearer run at tax concession. In fact that's what the ATO said to me this morning and why they are making sure they cross all the t's and dot all the i's as they expect a flood of similar applications if it is successful. Here's hoping!
> Smiles, Amethyst
> www.cciwi.org
> www.oakandmistletoe.com.au
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Tim Hartridge <ozpagan@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 13/10/2010, at 12:02 PM, a2zamethyst58 wrote:
> >
> > > Apologies for any cross posting but this is potentially important
> > > for all Pagan groups in Australia. I thought you all might like to
> > > know of the hopeful breakthrough in terms of recognition of
> > > Paganism with the Australia Taxation office. Fingers crossed
> > > everyone please for a positive outcome hopefully by the end of
> > > October as it has ramifications and potential benefits for all
> > > Pagan groups.
> > >
> >
> > Congratulations Amethyst (I hope).
> >
> > In the future you might need a tax-deductible PR consultant to help
> > put together press releases (joke).
> >
> > I do have a few serious questions though.
> >
> > Does this mean you will be recognised as a pagan religious
> > institution? What do you feel this will mean for "Community Church of
> > Inclusive Wicca Inc."?
> >
> > You mention that the "...ATO has not up until this point recognised
> > Paganism as a valid religion under the existing interpretation of the
> > taxation laws". What has changed to help make the difference.
> >
> > I'm sure the pagan community at large, as well as others who do run
> > various pagan church and community groups are going to be very
> > interested in supporting this.
> >
> >
> > vinum sabbati,
> > Tim Hartridge <moderator>
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WitchesWorkshop/
> > http://www.witchesworkshop.com
> > http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3193 - Release Date: 10/13/10 05:37:00
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (16)
1c.

Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion

Posted by: "a2zamethyst58" amethyst@oakandmistletoe.com.au   a2zamethyst58

Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:53 am (PDT)



In terms of reporting on it John, perhaps we should wait until the apporval comes through? then perhaps we can report on the outcome, be that positive or negative. At this stage it is looking positive but I'd rather see a stroy on it ocne there is an outcome.
Regards,
Amethyst
www.cciwi.org

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, John Elder <jelder@...> wrote:
>
> Hi David
>
> John Elder here from The Sunday Age. we're keen to run a piece on this usse. Can you get in touch please? And any other interested parties? jelder@...<mailto:jelder@...>
>
> cheers
>
> John
>
> ________________________________
> From: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com [WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Garland [paninc@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 October 2010 9:12 PM
> To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion
>
>
>
> Hi Amethyst,
>
> Just to clarify, you have applied to become a Deductable Gift Recipient (DGR) so that people can claim on their tax for any donations that they have made to your organisation?
>
> You have also applied for your Incorporated Association to be income tax exempt as a religious institution, so that you do not have to pay tax as an employee of the association?
>
> Neither of these will mean that the ATO will recognise Wicca as a religion, they will recognise your organisation as a religious institution, there is a huge difference, as a federal department the ATO is not allowed to recognise a religion under chapter 5 section 116 of the Australian Constitution. It is a very fine point that needs to be made clear that it is your institution CCIWI that is being recognised and not the Religion.
>
> Any not for profit group can apply not to pay tax on the income they make, PAN Inc has never had to pay tax in its 13 years and we have a turnover of close to 50K a year. We would only have to pay tax if we paid the people on the board and that would be payroll and income tax.
>
> I am not sure but I think the Church of Wicca was the first recognised Wiccan Church in Australia in the late 80's and they may have, I can not confirm it, obtained the tax breaks associated with it, but alas the Church folded many years ago.
>
> All of this aside I wish you well in your endeavours, and await with anticipation on your final response from the ATO.
>
> L&L
> David
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: a2zamethyst58
> To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WitchesWorkshop%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:43 PM
> Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion
>
> Thanks Tim, appreciated.
> Happy to answer your questions and great ones they are. I'd also like to point out that when I first made the submission to the ATO last year, I naively assumed that many other Wiccan groups had done it before and that we were just following suit. I stupidly assumed that the ATO would see Wicca as a legit religion just like any other religion and had absolutely no idea I was breaking new ground.
> To answer your questions. You asked... Does this mean you will be recognised as a pagan religious institution? What do you feel this will mean for "Community Church of Inclusive Wicca Inc."?
> Good question. I've asked the ATO for income tax concessions as a religious organisation as well as for the ability to allow anyone who donates to claim their donation as a tax deductable donation on their own tax returns just like World Vision, Salvation Army and the myriad of other organisations that many of us donate to and then claim against our personal tax returns.
> A point of clarification for folks is that I've clearly stated "Wicca" as opposed to "Pagan" on the application as that focuses precisely on the religion supported by the Community Church of Wicca Inc. (cciwi) Apparently the ATO have never accepted Wicca as a legit religion before hence the length of time it's taken for the global investigation the ATO have done.
> It means that the ATO will recognise cciwi as a Wiccan (not Pagan per se but by association) religious institution but more importantly it means the ATO will recognise Wicca as a religion which will allow other Wiccan groups to follow suit and claim taxations concessions as well if they meet the practical requirements.
> What does it mean for cciwi? Financially it means we would not have to pay as much tax on any "income" we receive. Our main source of income is donations and membership fees and it would be fair to say that the income we receive barely covers the costs of the services we give back to the Wiccan/Pagan community but not having to pay as much tax on the miniscule money we do raise is a bonus.
> In addition, it also means we may receive more donations because people will be able to claim their donations against their personal tax return. To be honest, financially speaking it will mean squat as we have such a tiny income anyway but it may help our legitimacy in the religious landscape and it does raise the equality bar for Wicca.
> You also asked... "...ATO has not up until this point recognised Paganism as a valid religion under the existing interpretation of the taxation laws". What has changed to help make the difference?
> Again I would just clarify that the ATO is looking primarily at Wicca as the religion but with Paganism also by association. The ATO tells me that the court case in the Eastern states a couple of years ago in which the judge declared Wicca a religion did allot of good for our case. In addition, the recent change in the UK for the acceptance of Druidism also helped I'm told. I also had to answer a considerable barrage of questions over the last year about the fundamental tenets of Wicca as a religion from cciwi's point of view. I had to tell them about the central paradigms of Wicca (from cciwi's point of view I hasten to add which reflect a more eclectic rather than traditional form of Wicca). Things like the Rede, Law of Return and so forth. I also had to explain to them the 7 tenets that are the fundamentals of cciwi which uphold Wiccan principles and also supply cciwi's constitution. I also had to show them how Wicca is followed as a religion round the world and I had to explain to them how we view deity under the legal terminology of "higher existence". Lastly I had to show that we have a significant membership (what they called a congregation) base and that we run a legitimate incorporation with an elected leadership council and so forth. It has been a tonne of work I can tell you!
> I would point out if I may that my submission to the ATO explored and explained Wicca from cciwi's point of view which while eclectic I'd say we're also fairly representative of mainstream Wicca. With that said, let me reinforce that I do not see it as the representation of everyone's Wicca and I've made that very clear to the ATO. I have explained that like mainstream religions, we are just one "denomination" (their language) and that other practitioners will probably follow the same basic tenets but their practice will probably be different to ours.
> So for all Wiccans and of course by default Pagans, if it finally gets accepted this month after a year of discussions, it means many other Wiccan and by association Pagan groups will hopefully have a clearer run at tax concession. In fact that's what the ATO said to me this morning and why they are making sure they cross all the t's and dot all the i's as they expect a flood of similar applications if it is successful. Here's hoping!
> Smiles, Amethyst
> www.cciwi.org
> www.oakandmistletoe.com.au
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com<mailto:WitchesWorkshop%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim Hartridge <ozpagan@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 13/10/2010, at 12:02 PM, a2zamethyst58 wrote:
> >
> > > Apologies for any cross posting but this is potentially important
> > > for all Pagan groups in Australia. I thought you all might like to
> > > know of the hopeful breakthrough in terms of recognition of
> > > Paganism with the Australia Taxation office. Fingers crossed
> > > everyone please for a positive outcome hopefully by the end of
> > > October as it has ramifications and potential benefits for all
> > > Pagan groups.
> > >
> >
> > Congratulations Amethyst (I hope).
> >
> > In the future you might need a tax-deductible PR consultant to help
> > put together press releases (joke).
> >
> > I do have a few serious questions though.
> >
> > Does this mean you will be recognised as a pagan religious
> > institution? What do you feel this will mean for "Community Church of
> > Inclusive Wicca Inc."?
> >
> > You mention that the "...ATO has not up until this point recognised
> > Paganism as a valid religion under the existing interpretation of the
> > taxation laws". What has changed to help make the difference.
> >
> > I'm sure the pagan community at large, as well as others who do run
> > various pagan church and community groups are going to be very
> > interested in supporting this.
> >
> >
> > vinum sabbati,
> > Tim Hartridge <moderator>
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WitchesWorkshop/
> > http://www.witchesworkshop.com
> > http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
> >
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.862 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3193 - Release Date: 10/13/10 05:37:00
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files.
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (16)
1d.

Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion

Posted by: "a2zamethyst58" amethyst@oakandmistletoe.com.au   a2zamethyst58

Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:54 am (PDT)



Have indeed done so Frances.
many smiles,
Amethyst

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "frances_tdm" <lunanoire1@...> wrote:
>
> oops ...
>
> should have been ...
>
> "Just make sure you specify these requirements relate to your "church" only and NOT to be taken as a general
> assumption across the board."
>
> BB - Frances
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (16)
1e.

Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion

Posted by: "Brock Ulfsen" brockulfsen@yahoo.com.au   brockulfsen

Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:58 am (PDT)




On 14/10/2010, at 7:51 PM, a2zamethyst58 wrote:
> Nope. I've applied (on behalf of cciwi as the Public Office)for tax
> concessions on any income the incorporated body might receive from
> membership fees or even donations. Having said that cciwi's income
> is squat and was no more than $200 last year but again it's the
> principle of the thing.
>
Membership fees and other moneys from members aren't taxable anyway
(except possibly GST in some circumstances).

...Brock.

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (16)
1f.

Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion

Posted by: "a2zamethyst58" amethyst@oakandmistletoe.com.au   a2zamethyst58

Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:27 am (PDT)



Hi Brock, they were examples of potential income.
Smiles,
Amethyst

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Brock Ulfsen <brockulfsen@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 14/10/2010, at 7:51 PM, a2zamethyst58 wrote:
> > Nope. I've applied (on behalf of cciwi as the Public Office)for tax
> > concessions on any income the incorporated body might receive from
> > membership fees or even donations. Having said that cciwi's income
> > is squat and was no more than $200 last year but again it's the
> > principle of the thing.
> >
> Membership fees and other moneys from members aren't taxable anyway
> (except possibly GST in some circumstances).
>
> ...Brock.
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (16)
1g.

Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion

Posted by: "Tim Hartridge" ozpagan@ozpagan.com   wwwozpagancom

Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:18 am (PDT)




On 14/10/2010, at 4:56 PM, John Elder wrote:

> John Elder here from The Sunday Age. we're keen to run a piece on
> this...

Likewise Amethyst, I certainly appreciate you keeping us in the loop
here on WitchesWorkshop. Thank you.

From some of the comments written (by others), there seems to be a
splitting of hairs on the issue of religious recognition, and
possibly even more Pythonesque logic coming from government bodies.

Eg., the ATO is saying, "Now you have applied as a religious body for
tax emption, which we will give to you, but that doesn't mean you are
religion, but we only give this emption to religious institutions."
What the...!!!

But something mentioned that did make more sense to me was the the
question of membership numbers. @Amethyst - do you know how many
members are needed to meet your 'religious' congregation numbers?

I think it was mentioned by Frances, that this issue of numbers was a
stumbling block; where the typical structure of most covens is small.

Also @Amethyst - have you thought of a collaborative structure. I'm
thinking specifically of Martin Howells' United Pagan Church
<www.unitedpagans.org.au> The UPC have created "...an umbrella
organisation providing representation for smaller localized Pagan
groups, and endorsement of Pagan clergy."

I like a lot of what Martin has said here on WW about the UPC's
approach. It seems less concerned with aggrandizement of
personalities and more focused on the pagan community.

vinum sabbati,
Tim

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (16)
1h.

Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion

Posted by: "a2zamethyst58" amethyst@oakandmistletoe.com.au   a2zamethyst58

Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:57 pm (PDT)



Hi Tim,
thanks for those wonderful comments.

You metntioned...
But something mentioned that did make more sense to me was the the
question of membership numbers. @Amethyst - do you know how many
members are needed to meet your 'religious' congregation numbers? I think it was mentioned by Frances, that this issue of numbers was a stumbling block; where the typical structure of most covens is small.

Yes this was my initial thought too Tim but strangely the ATO have never once asked us how many members we have even though we could show a fairly large body of membership. They haven't asked for any proof of adequate membership to evidence a "congregation" and I guess even if they did, what number would constitute a "congregation" or adequate membership? That begs the question then that perhaps smaller covens/groups could also seek taxation concessions regardless of numbers if they chose to? Not sure given the ATO haven't even asked.

You also mentioned... Also @Amethyst - have you thought of a collaborative structure. I'm thinking specifically of Martin Howells' United Pagan Church www.unitedpagans.org.au The UPC have created "...an umbrella organisation providing representation for smaller localized Pagan groups, and endorsement of Pagan clergy."

Yep, I very much respect Martin's UPC and I also have to say I am inspired by his common sense approach to it and how he explains the UPC principles. cciwi runs in a similar manner but perhaps not quite so broad. cciwi is not a coven in it's own right but is instead the underpinning body to which my own coven, Oak and Mistletoe, and some other covens and solitaries belong. cciwi provides if you like, the basis of the tradition we follow and supports both solitaries and covens/groups/temples who follow the tradition of Inclusive Wicca. It therefore is the "glue" that holds a bunch of people and groups together that follow this trad. So someone can be a member of an Inclusive Wiccan coven and also of cciwi if they choose to. Or someone who has trained in Inclusive Wicca can start their own study group or coven (when ready and trained enough) and if they're a member of cciwi they get full support with teaching materials and shared fellowhsip ect for themselves and their Inclusive Wiccan group if they'd like to. To them cciwi provides a number of services including teaching materials, shared resources including things like our lending library and practical support in times of difficulty (the form of this of course is dependent on the siutuation) and a number of other services including the provision of clergy status after all requirements have been met. They don't have to join cciwi of course, no one does but it does offer a nother layer of support to those who want it.
With that said, cciwi is therfore similar to UPC in that it offers a shared platform of support to many but is different in that it was set up specifically to support the tradition of Inclusive Wicca. That's not to say we would not support any other trad because we would but cciwi was never aimed at that broader Wiccan or Pagan community segment.UPC does an excellent job of that and I can't see how cciwi would benefit anyone by trying to do the same thing.

Am hoping that clarifies and explains a little more the purposes of cciwi. I would also like to state that in creating cciwi as the foundational body of support for the Inclusive Wiccan tradition, it was never the intent to make it a representative body of Wicca per se. Heaven forbid! It is in effect just another tradition alebeit with some legal foundations that help provide a framework for its practitoners around the world. It doesn't mean it's better than any other Wiccan trad or more legitimate. I do hope folk understand that. :)
Many smiles,
Amethyst

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Tim Hartridge <ozpagan@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 14/10/2010, at 4:56 PM, John Elder wrote:
>
> > John Elder here from The Sunday Age. we're keen to run a piece on
> > this...
>
>
> Likewise Amethyst, I certainly appreciate you keeping us in the loop
> here on WitchesWorkshop. Thank you.
>
> From some of the comments written (by others), there seems to be a
> splitting of hairs on the issue of religious recognition, and
> possibly even more Pythonesque logic coming from government bodies.
>
> Eg., the ATO is saying, "Now you have applied as a religious body for
> tax emption, which we will give to you, but that doesn't mean you are
> religion, but we only give this emption to religious institutions."
> What the...!!!
>
> But something mentioned that did make more sense to me was the the
> question of membership numbers. @Amethyst - do you know how many
> members are needed to meet your 'religious' congregation numbers?
>
> I think it was mentioned by Frances, that this issue of numbers was a
> stumbling block; where the typical structure of most covens is small.
>
> Also @Amethyst - have you thought of a collaborative structure. I'm
> thinking specifically of Martin Howells' United Pagan Church
> <www.unitedpagans.org.au> The UPC have created "...an umbrella
> organisation providing representation for smaller localized Pagan
> groups, and endorsement of Pagan clergy."
>
> I like a lot of what Martin has said here on WW about the UPC's
> approach. It seems less concerned with aggrandizement of
> personalities and more focused on the pagan community.
>
> vinum sabbati,
> Tim
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (16)
1i.

Re: Taxation dept may finally recognise Paganism as a valid religion

Posted by: "crossroadsincircle" crossroadsincircle@yahoo.com.au   crossroadsincircle

Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:17 am (PDT)



Hi Amethyst,

According to your website and Wikipedia article, Inclusive Wicca has been incorporated since 2008? Just a quick question, how large is your tradition?

It seems that you're setting up infrastructure for a group, much like Martin is with his Church. I can't help but wonder if the setting up of multiple smaller groups limits any potential effectiveness those groups could have. Have you considered consolidating with other like-minded groups?

BT

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (16)
Recent Activity
Visit Your Group
Give Back

Yahoo! for Good

Get inspired

by a good cause.

Y! Toolbar

Get it Free!

easy 1-click access

to your groups.

Yahoo! Groups

Start a group

in 3 easy steps.

Connect with others.

Need to Reply?

Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest.

Create New Topic | Visit Your Group on the Web
____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________

Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html

Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/135651219624

WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
http://www.witchesworkshop.com
___________________________________________________________

The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our  
communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
to these principles & to notify owner.

info@witchesworkshop.com
___________________________________________________________

Publicat de la

Niciun comentariu:

Trimiteți un comentariu

Abonați-vă la: Postare comentarii (Atom)