vineri, 5 august 2011

[WitchesWorkshop] Digest Number 4798

Messages In This Digest (13 Messages)

Messages

1a.

Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

Posted by: "barbtrad" barbtrad@yahoo.com.au   barbtrad

Thu Aug 4, 2011 2:58 pm (PDT)



Hi Mark.

Thanks for your in depth reply. Actually what it comes down too is whether or not governments can be trusted with information about one's self.. something... . personally I do not believe they can be.

I wish your campaign all success, really I do, providing I'm not on any of the lists or any of my information is in the hands of Big Brother. I do see where you and Pagan Dash are coming from and will say straight up your intentions are good. I guess I have been shafted well and truly by successive governments hence my inherent distrust of government regardless of its political flavour.

Asio maintains a file on me, despite my never ever having been a member of any sort of subversive organization, Hells Bells not even a political party of any kind. The reason? Well my rather hostile question was answered by saying it was because I had received certain training in the military and that I had been a member of a foreign military force..( I was seconded into American forces in Vietnam for a few months).. But I thought the Americans and us were on the same side???

With apologies to Mr Harris and the paint commercial..Trust the government??? (insert drum roll on paint tin)..Sure can't!!!

All the best Mark.

Bill.

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Mark S Hepworth <mits@...> wrote:
>
> <Snipped to save bandwidth>
> >
> > You know Mark it isn't just the "Pagan" issue that pisses me off big
> > time with the census: Their proposal that it is virtually just to
> > count heads is bloody minded nonsense! They already have the
> > statistics re births,deaths and immigration and migration. Simple sums
> > would give them all the answers they need or indeed have any right to
> > have. I shall once again put my devious mind to work avoiding filling
> > out their impertinent bloody form.. and avoid incurring any penalty
> > for failure to do so.
> >
> > Thanks for your reply ..Bill.
> >
> Hi Bill,
>
> I can understand that, I have spoken to a few census collectors who told
> me that was their issue with the census and that is why the got involved
> to find out more.
>
> You are right, the register of Births, Death and Marriages as well as
> the Immigration department would give you a number for population, but
> then you are talking about linking two goverment departments, which
> gives me the willies to begin with, wasn't that why we rejected the
> Australia card, as the State Roads departments and Medicare would be linked?
>
> The other information in the Census is who lives in the area, because I
> don't think Birth's Death and marriages collates were you move to
> between the 3 events. That data might be taken from the roads system, or
> passports department, or even medicare, linking a few more goverment
> agencies. Then there is the question of the household income, so you
> also start to throw in the Tax department into the equation.
>
> Local goverments (Councils and the like) get their funding based on
> Census Data, now we all get rates notices and I am sure you could say,
> that local councils could provide that information to the commonwealth
> (as in a number) to get appropriate funding. The problem I have with
> that, is watching the behaviour of local councils recently, I can't
> honestly say that a large number of them wound'nt jack up their numbers
> to get more money. Also when you pay rates you are paying per house, but
> that doesn't tell you how many people live there or what services might
> be required for those residents.
>
> This is why the census happens, to keep these compeating interests
> apart. Also why the census is anonymous, as if they goverment had all
> this data linked, well I for one would not be happy.
>
> For the dash campagin we focus on religion, religion is on the census to
> assist the local goverment areas to know if they have the right type of
> religous services for their constitants. Having been involved with
> census stuff from March this year, working on the Dash campaign, I have
> seen an e-mail doing the rounds, that is now turning up on facebook
> telling Australian's to write a religion on their census, even if it is
> the one you were raised under because "1,000,000" Australian musliums
> will put down their faith, and you may end up with a mosque next door to
> your house! This is partially true, as funding for local religous groups
> is based on census data. Having said that, I think funding a stone
> circle in a public park is going to be a big ask. Also gotta appluade
> the peddelers of fear for making something that is so small a thing, a
> issue of discrimination.
>
> Maybe the recent talk about eCensus has inspired you, tell the census
> collector your going to do eCensus, you get an eCensus card but never do
> the eCensus.
>
> Regards,
> Mark Hepworth
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (17)
1b.

Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

Posted by: "Matthieu Morelle" lucifervulus_sa_kage@yahoo.com.au   lucifervulus_sa_kage

Thu Aug 4, 2011 8:06 pm (PDT)



Bit dramatic... Who cares who has a file on you? Be good and it won't matter. If its their policy to keep files on people with military training who fought with forgien countries, so what? Makes sense to me... Your objections sound, at worst, like paranoid rantings or, at best, like the squeeling of a malcontent who just rocks the boat because he can. Really, what do you think that the government is going to do with the information that is so terrible you object to spending a couple of minutes filling out a form so the government can know more about the Australian demorgraphic?

-----Original Message-----
From: barbtrad
Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 7:58
To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

Hi Mark.

Thanks for your in depth reply. Actually what it comes down too is whether or not governments can be trusted with information about one's self.. something... . personally I do not believe they can be.

I wish your campaign all success, really I do, providing I'm not on any of the lists or any of my information is in the hands of Big Brother. I do see where you and Pagan Dash are coming from and will say straight up your intentions are good. I guess I have been shafted well and truly by successive governments hence my inherent distrust of government regardless of its political flavour.

Asio maintains a file on me, despite my never ever having been a member of any sort of subversive organization, Hells Bells not even a political party of any kind. The reason? Well my rather hostile question was answered by saying it was because I had received certain training in the military and that I had been a member of a foreign military force..( I was seconded into American forces in Vietnam for a few months).. But I thought the Americans and us were on the same side???

With apologies to Mr Harris and the paint commercial..Trust the government??? (insert drum roll on paint tin)..Sure can't!!!

All the best Mark.

Bill.

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Mark S Hepworth <mits@...> wrote:
>
> <Snipped to save bandwidth>
> >
> > You know Mark it isn't just the "Pagan" issue that pisses me off big
> > time with the census: Their proposal that it is virtually just to
> > count heads is bloody minded nonsense! They already have the
> > statistics re births,deaths and immigration and migration. Simple sums
> > would give them all the answers they need or indeed have any right to
> > have. I shall once again put my devious mind to work avoiding filling
> > out their impertinent bloody form.. and avoid incurring any penalty
> > for failure to do so.
> >
> > Thanks for your reply ..Bill.
> >
> Hi Bill,
>
> I can understand that, I have spoken to a few census collectors who told
> me that was their issue with the census and that is why the got involved
> to find out more.
>
> You are right, the register of Births, Death and Marriages as well as
> the Immigration department would give you a number for population, but
> then you are talking about linking two goverment departments, which
> gives me the willies to begin with, wasn't that why we rejected the
> Australia card, as the State Roads departments and Medicare would be linked?
>
> The other information in the Census is who lives in the area, because I
> don't think Birth's Death and marriages collates were you move to
> between the 3 events. That data might be taken from the roads system, or
> passports department, or even medicare, linking a few more goverment
> agencies. Then there is the question of the household income, so you
> also start to throw in the Tax department into the equation.
>
> Local goverments (Councils and the like) get their funding based on
> Census Data, now we all get rates notices and I am sure you could say,
> that local councils could provide that information to the commonwealth
> (as in a number) to get appropriate funding. The problem I have with
> that, is watching the behaviour of local councils recently, I can't
> honestly say that a large number of them wound'nt jack up their numbers
> to get more money. Also when you pay rates you are paying per house, but
> that doesn't tell you how many people live there or what services might
> be required for those residents.
>
> This is why the census happens, to keep these compeating interests
> apart. Also why the census is anonymous, as if they goverment had all
> this data linked, well I for one would not be happy.
>
> For the dash campagin we focus on religion, religion is on the census to
> assist the local goverment areas to know if they have the right type of
> religous services for their constitants. Having been involved with
> census stuff from March this year, working on the Dash campaign, I have
> seen an e-mail doing the rounds, that is now turning up on facebook
> telling Australian's to write a religion on their census, even if it is
> the one you were raised under because "1,000,000" Australian musliums
> will put down their faith, and you may end up with a mosque next door to
> your house! This is partially true, as funding for local religous groups
> is based on census data. Having said that, I think funding a stone
> circle in a public park is going to be a big ask. Also gotta appluade
> the peddelers of fear for making something that is so small a thing, a
> issue of discrimination.
>
> Maybe the recent talk about eCensus has inspired you, tell the census
> collector your going to do eCensus, you get an eCensus card but never do
> the eCensus.
>
> Regards,
> Mark Hepworth
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (17)
1c.

Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

Posted by: "Tim Hartridge" ozpagan@ozpagan.com   wwwozpagancom

Thu Aug 4, 2011 9:21 pm (PDT)




On 05/08/2011, at 1:06 PM, Matthieu Morelle wrote:

> Bit dramatic...
> Who cares who has a file on you? Be good and it won't matter. If
> its their policy to keep files on people with military training who
> fought with forgien countries, so what? Makes sense to me...

Hi Matthiew,
Err.. I'd raise a couple of points in response to your questions
(rhetorical or otherwise).

First, there is an alternative option from being identified in the
census (although I understand this is not a concern for you). The
census does provides this opt-out question (No. 60) so that
information, that might identify you, will not be kept.

Second, there are plenty of good reasons why having too much of your
Paganism 'out-of-the-closet' is not a good thing - which I'll explain.

> Your objections sound, at worst, like paranoid rantings or, at
> best, like the squeeling of a malcontent who just rocks the boat
> because he can.
> Really, what do you think that the government is going to do with
> the information that is so terrible you object to spending a couple
> of minutes filling out a form so the government can know more
> about the Australian demorgraphic?

Your earlier comment of "Be good and it won't matter" is a little
naive. What if your "being good" does not match the government's idea
of "being good". Not that long ago just practicing "witchcraft" was a
criminal offense in this country. I know from personal experience
exactly how this can play out. I consider myself lucky to have come
through this experience with a very positive out come. Of course
times have changed, but that does not necessary mean there is a
wholesale change of attitudes by employers, work colleagues, or clients.

Very recently a friend who 'outed' himself as a pagan on Facebook
found himself on an abrupt and rude canceling of a work contract. It
took him some six months to recover the lost work. He has since
changed his Facebook id and separated a divide between work and his
personal live.

My advice to students when undertaking my workshops is, "Don't tell
just anyone about your interests." That must extend to the
electronic forms of 'acquaintance' too. So this is no "paranoid
rantings", no these are the voices of experience speaking.

By all means fill-in "Pagan" in the form but, consider whether the
opt-out of retaining of your census information is for you.

vinum sabbati
Tim 'ozpagan' Hartridge

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: barbtrad
> Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 7:58
> To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census
> time again
>
>
> Hi Mark.
>
> Thanks for your in depth reply. Actually what it comes down too is
> whether or not governments can be trusted with information about
> one's self.. something... . personally I do not believe they can be.
>
> I wish your campaign all success, really I do, providing I'm not on
> any of the lists or any of my information is in the hands of Big
> Brother. I do see where you and Pagan Dash are coming from and will
> say straight up your intentions are good. I guess I have been
> shafted well and truly by successive governments hence my inherent
> distrust of government regardless of its political flavour.
>
> Asio maintains a file on me, despite my never ever having been a
> member of any sort of subversive organization, Hells Bells not even
> a political party of any kind. The reason? Well my rather hostile
> question was answered by saying it was because I had received
> certain training in the military and that I had been a member of a
> foreign military force..( I was seconded into American forces in
> Vietnam for a few months).. But I thought the Americans and us were
> on the same side???
>
> With apologies to Mr Harris and the paint commercial..Trust the
> government??? (insert drum roll on paint tin)..Sure can't!!!
>
> All the best Mark.
>
> Bill.
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Mark S Hepworth <mits@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> <Snipped to save bandwidth>
>>>
>>> You know Mark it isn't just the "Pagan" issue that pisses me off big
>>> time with the census: Their proposal that it is virtually just to
>>> count heads is bloody minded nonsense! They already have the
>>> statistics re births,deaths and immigration and migration. Simple
>>> sums
>>> would give them all the answers they need or indeed have any
>>> right to
>>> have. I shall once again put my devious mind to work avoiding
>>> filling
>>> out their impertinent bloody form.. and avoid incurring any penalty
>>> for failure to do so.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply ..Bill.
>>>
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> I can understand that, I have spoken to a few census collectors
>> who told
>> me that was their issue with the census and that is why the got
>> involved
>> to find out more.
>>
>> You are right, the register of Births, Death and Marriages as well as
>> the Immigration department would give you a number for population,
>> but
>> then you are talking about linking two goverment departments, which
>> gives me the willies to begin with, wasn't that why we rejected the
>> Australia card, as the State Roads departments and Medicare would
>> be linked?
>>
>> The other information in the Census is who lives in the area,
>> because I
>> don't think Birth's Death and marriages collates were you move to
>> between the 3 events. That data might be taken from the roads
>> system, or
>> passports department, or even medicare, linking a few more goverment
>> agencies. Then there is the question of the household income, so you
>> also start to throw in the Tax department into the equation.
>>
>> Local goverments (Councils and the like) get their funding based on
>> Census Data, now we all get rates notices and I am sure you could
>> say,
>> that local councils could provide that information to the
>> commonwealth
>> (as in a number) to get appropriate funding. The problem I have with
>> that, is watching the behaviour of local councils recently, I can't
>> honestly say that a large number of them wound'nt jack up their
>> numbers
>> to get more money. Also when you pay rates you are paying per
>> house, but
>> that doesn't tell you how many people live there or what services
>> might
>> be required for those residents.
>>
>> This is why the census happens, to keep these compeating interests
>> apart. Also why the census is anonymous, as if they goverment had all
>> this data linked, well I for one would not be happy.
>>
>> For the dash campagin we focus on religion, religion is on the
>> census to
>> assist the local goverment areas to know if they have the right
>> type of
>> religous services for their constitants. Having been involved with
>> census stuff from March this year, working on the Dash campaign, I
>> have
>> seen an e-mail doing the rounds, that is now turning up on facebook
>> telling Australian's to write a religion on their census, even if
>> it is
>> the one you were raised under because "1,000,000" Australian musliums
>> will put down their faith, and you may end up with a mosque next
>> door to
>> your house! This is partially true, as funding for local religous
>> groups
>> is based on census data. Having said that, I think funding a stone
>> circle in a public park is going to be a big ask. Also gotta appluade
>> the peddelers of fear for making something that is so small a
>> thing, a
>> issue of discrimination.
>>
>> Maybe the recent talk about eCensus has inspired you, tell the census
>> collector your going to do eCensus, you get an eCensus card but
>> never do
>> the eCensus.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark Hepworth
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________
>
> Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
> http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html
>
> Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/
> 135651219624
>
> WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
> several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
> http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
> http://www.witchesworkshop.com
> __________________________________________________________
>
> The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
> tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
> communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
> Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
> to these principles & to notify owner.
>
> info@witchesworkshop.com
> __________________________________________________________
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (17)
1d.

Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

Posted by: "Graham" grahfurn@yahoo.com.au   grahfurn

Thu Aug 4, 2011 9:44 pm (PDT)



Just another point to add to those you have made Tim and all - I thought I heard on the radio recently that the census data will be made accessible to future generations for ancestry research purposes <unless you specify your wishes otherwise on the form???> so it seems that this data could be more than just a compilation of short-term anonymous information, but a permanent record of the details of your response will be kept, thus providing an intimate profile of yourself for potential access by anyone for many years to come - for better or worse. Just thought I'd mention that as something to think about, and please all bear in mind that I may not be entirely correct in this, but it's just what I'm pretty sure I heard discussed on talk-back radio recently :)

BB, Graham.

________________________________
From: Tim Hartridge <ozpagan@ozpagan.com>
To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

 

On 05/08/2011, at 1:06 PM, Matthieu Morelle wrote:

> Bit dramatic...
> Who cares who has a file on you? Be good and it won't matter. If
> its their policy to keep files on people with military training who
> fought with forgien countries, so what? Makes sense to me...

Hi Matthiew,
Err.. I'd raise a couple of points in response to your questions
(rhetorical or otherwise).

First, there is an alternative option from being identified in the
census (although I understand this is not a concern for you). The
census does provides this opt-out question (No. 60) so that
information, that might identify you, will not be kept.

Second, there are plenty of good reasons why having too much of your
Paganism 'out-of-the-closet' is not a good thing - which I'll explain.

> Your objections sound, at worst, like paranoid rantings or, at
> best, like the squeeling of a malcontent who just rocks the boat
> because he can.
> Really, what do you think that the government is going to do with
> the information that is so terrible you object to spending a couple
> of minutes filling out a form so the government can know more
> about the Australian demorgraphic?

Your earlier comment of "Be good and it won't matter" is a little
naive. What if your "being good" does not match the government's idea
of "being good". Not that long ago just practicing "witchcraft" was a
criminal offense in this country. I know from personal experience
exactly how this can play out. I consider myself lucky to have come
through this experience with a very positive out come. Of course
times have changed, but that does not necessary mean there is a
wholesale change of attitudes by employers, work colleagues, or clients.

Very recently a friend who 'outed' himself as a pagan on Facebook
found himself on an abrupt and rude canceling of a work contract. It
took him some six months to recover the lost work. He has since
changed his Facebook id and separated a divide between work and his
personal live.

My advice to students when undertaking my workshops is, "Don't tell
just anyone about your interests." That must extend to the
electronic forms of 'acquaintance' too. So this is no "paranoid
rantings", no these are the voices of experience speaking.

By all means fill-in "Pagan" in the form but, consider whether the
opt-out of retaining of your census information is for you.

vinum sabbati
Tim 'ozpagan' Hartridge

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: barbtrad
> Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 7:58
> To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census
> time again
>
>
> Hi Mark.
>
> Thanks for your in depth reply. Actually what it comes down too is
> whether or not governments can be trusted with information about
> one's self.. something... . personally I do not believe they can be.
>
> I wish your campaign all success, really I do, providing I'm not on
> any of the lists or any of my information is in the hands of Big
> Brother. I do see where you and Pagan Dash are coming from and will
> say straight up your intentions are good. I guess I have been
> shafted well and truly by successive governments hence my inherent
> distrust of government regardless of its political flavour.
>
> Asio maintains a file on me, despite my never ever having been a
> member of any sort of subversive organization, Hells Bells not even
> a political party of any kind. The reason? Well my rather hostile
> question was answered by saying it was because I had received
> certain training in the military and that I had been a member of a
> foreign military force..( I was seconded into American forces in
> Vietnam for a few months).. But I thought the Americans and us were
> on the same side???
>
> With apologies to Mr Harris and the paint commercial..Trust the
> government??? (insert drum roll on paint tin)..Sure can't!!!
>
> All the best Mark.
>
> Bill.
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Mark S Hepworth <mits@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> <Snipped to save bandwidth>
>>>
>>> You know Mark it isn't just the "Pagan" issue that pisses me off big
>>> time with the census: Their proposal that it is virtually just to
>>> count heads is bloody minded nonsense! They already have the
>>> statistics re births,deaths and immigration and migration. Simple
>>> sums
>>> would give them all the answers they need or indeed have any
>>> right to
>>> have. I shall once again put my devious mind to work avoiding
>>> filling
>>> out their impertinent bloody form.. and avoid incurring any penalty
>>> for failure to do so.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply ..Bill.
>>>
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> I can understand that, I have spoken to a few census collectors
>> who told
>> me that was their issue with the census and that is why the got
>> involved
>> to find out more.
>>
>> You are right, the register of Births, Death and Marriages as well as
>> the Immigration department would give you a number for population,
>> but
>> then you are talking about linking two goverment departments, which
>> gives me the willies to begin with, wasn't that why we rejected the
>> Australia card, as the State Roads departments and Medicare would
>> be linked?
>>
>> The other information in the Census is who lives in the area,
>> because I
>> don't think Birth's Death and marriages collates were you move to
>> between the 3 events. That data might be taken from the roads
>> system, or
>> passports department, or even medicare, linking a few more goverment
>> agencies. Then there is the question of the household income, so you
>> also start to throw in the Tax department into the equation.
>>
>> Local goverments (Councils and the like) get their funding based on
>> Census Data, now we all get rates notices and I am sure you could
>> say,
>> that local councils could provide that information to the
>> commonwealth
>> (as in a number) to get appropriate funding. The problem I have with
>> that, is watching the behaviour of local councils recently, I can't
>> honestly say that a large number of them wound'nt jack up their
>> numbers
>> to get more money. Also when you pay rates you are paying per
>> house, but
>> that doesn't tell you how many people live there or what services
>> might
>> be required for those residents.
>>
>> This is why the census happens, to keep these compeating interests
>> apart. Also why the census is anonymous, as if they goverment had all
>> this data linked, well I for one would not be happy.
>>
>> For the dash campagin we focus on religion, religion is on the
>> census to
>> assist the local goverment areas to know if they have the right
>> type of
>> religous services for their constitants. Having been involved with
>> census stuff from March this year, working on the Dash campaign, I
>> have
>> seen an e-mail doing the rounds, that is now turning up on facebook
>> telling Australian's to write a religion on their census, even if
>> it is
>> the one you were raised under because "1,000,000" Australian musliums
>> will put down their faith, and you may end up with a mosque next
>> door to
>> your house! This is partially true, as funding for local religous
>> groups
>> is based on census data. Having said that, I think funding a stone
>> circle in a public park is going to be a big ask. Also gotta appluade
>> the peddelers of fear for making something that is so small a
>> thing, a
>> issue of discrimination.
>>
>> Maybe the recent talk about eCensus has inspired you, tell the census
>> collector your going to do eCensus, you get an eCensus card but
>> never do
>> the eCensus.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark Hepworth
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________
>
> Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
> http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html
>
> Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/
> 135651219624
>
> WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
> several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
> http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
> http://www.witchesworkshop.com
> __________________________________________________________
>
> The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
> tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
> communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
> Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
> to these principles & to notify owner.
>
> info@witchesworkshop.com
> __________________________________________________________
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (17)
1e.

Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

Posted by: "Brock Ulfsen" brockulfsen@yahoo.com.au   brockulfsen

Thu Aug 4, 2011 9:52 pm (PDT)



Yes, Australia was one of the few nations to discard identifying
information. I for one will be allowing my data to be accessed in a
century. Between electoral rolls and the internet the government
already knows pretty much everything about me.

Watching Time team and similar programs you will see them referring
back to 19th century British census books where the name, age,
occupation etc of each resident was recorded.

...Brock.

On 05/08/2011, at 2:44 PM, Graham wrote:

> Just another point to add to those you have made Tim and all - I
> thought I heard on the radio recently that the census data will be
> made accessible to future generations for ancestry research purposes
> <unless you specify your wishes otherwise on the form???> so it
> seems that this data could be more than just a compilation of short-
> term anonymous information, but a permanent record of the details of
> your response will be kept, thus providing an intimate profile of
> yourself for potential access by anyone for many years to come - for
> better or worse. Just thought I'd mention that as something to think
> about, and please all bear in mind that I may not be entirely
> correct in this, but it's just what I'm pretty sure I heard
> discussed on talk-back radio recently :)
>
> BB, Graham.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Tim Hartridge <ozpagan@ozpagan.com>
> To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 1:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census
> time again
>
>
>
> On 05/08/2011, at 1:06 PM, Matthieu Morelle wrote:
>
> > Bit dramatic...
> > Who cares who has a file on you? Be good and it won't matter. If
> > its their policy to keep files on people with military training who
> > fought with forgien countries, so what? Makes sense to me...
>
> Hi Matthiew,
> Err.. I'd raise a couple of points in response to your questions
> (rhetorical or otherwise).
>
> First, there is an alternative option from being identified in the
> census (although I understand this is not a concern for you). The
> census does provides this opt-out question (No. 60) so that
> information, that might identify you, will not be kept.
>
> Second, there are plenty of good reasons why having too much of your
> Paganism 'out-of-the-closet' is not a good thing - which I'll explain.
>
> > Your objections sound, at worst, like paranoid rantings or, at
> > best, like the squeeling of a malcontent who just rocks the boat
> > because he can.
> > Really, what do you think that the government is going to do with
> > the information that is so terrible you object to spending a couple
> > of minutes filling out a form so the government can know more
> > about the Australian demorgraphic?
>
> Your earlier comment of "Be good and it won't matter" is a little
> naive. What if your "being good" does not match the government's idea
> of "being good". Not that long ago just practicing "witchcraft" was a
> criminal offense in this country. I know from personal experience
> exactly how this can play out. I consider myself lucky to have come
> through this experience with a very positive out come. Of course
> times have changed, but that does not necessary mean there is a
> wholesale change of attitudes by employers, work colleagues, or
> clients.
>
> Very recently a friend who 'outed' himself as a pagan on Facebook
> found himself on an abrupt and rude canceling of a work contract. It
> took him some six months to recover the lost work. He has since
> changed his Facebook id and separated a divide between work and his
> personal live.
>
> My advice to students when undertaking my workshops is, "Don't tell
> just anyone about your interests." That must extend to the
> electronic forms of 'acquaintance' too. So this is no "paranoid
> rantings", no these are the voices of experience speaking.
>
> By all means fill-in "Pagan" in the form but, consider whether the
> opt-out of retaining of your census information is for you.
>
> vinum sabbati
> Tim 'ozpagan' Hartridge
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: barbtrad
> > Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 7:58
> > To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census
> > time again
> >
> >
> > Hi Mark.
> >
> > Thanks for your in depth reply. Actually what it comes down too is
> > whether or not governments can be trusted with information about
> > one's self.. something... . personally I do not believe they can be.
> >
> > I wish your campaign all success, really I do, providing I'm not on
> > any of the lists or any of my information is in the hands of Big
> > Brother. I do see where you and Pagan Dash are coming from and will
> > say straight up your intentions are good. I guess I have been
> > shafted well and truly by successive governments hence my inherent
> > distrust of government regardless of its political flavour.
> >
> > Asio maintains a file on me, despite my never ever having been a
> > member of any sort of subversive organization, Hells Bells not even
> > a political party of any kind. The reason? Well my rather hostile
> > question was answered by saying it was because I had received
> > certain training in the military and that I had been a member of a
> > foreign military force..( I was seconded into American forces in
> > Vietnam for a few months).. But I thought the Americans and us were
> > on the same side???
> >
> > With apologies to Mr Harris and the paint commercial..Trust the
> > government??? (insert drum roll on paint tin)..Sure can't!!!
> >
> > All the best Mark.
> >
> > Bill.
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Mark S Hepworth <mits@...>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> <Snipped to save bandwidth>
> >>>
> >>> You know Mark it isn't just the "Pagan" issue that pisses me off
> big
> >>> time with the census: Their proposal that it is virtually just to
> >>> count heads is bloody minded nonsense! They already have the
> >>> statistics re births,deaths and immigration and migration. Simple
> >>> sums
> >>> would give them all the answers they need or indeed have any
> >>> right to
> >>> have. I shall once again put my devious mind to work avoiding
> >>> filling
> >>> out their impertinent bloody form.. and avoid incurring any
> penalty
> >>> for failure to do so.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for your reply ..Bill.
> >>>
> >> Hi Bill,
> >>
> >> I can understand that, I have spoken to a few census collectors
> >> who told
> >> me that was their issue with the census and that is why the got
> >> involved
> >> to find out more.
> >>
> >> You are right, the register of Births, Death and Marriages as
> well as
> >> the Immigration department would give you a number for population,
> >> but
> >> then you are talking about linking two goverment departments, which
> >> gives me the willies to begin with, wasn't that why we rejected the
> >> Australia card, as the State Roads departments and Medicare would
> >> be linked?
> >>
> >> The other information in the Census is who lives in the area,
> >> because I
> >> don't think Birth's Death and marriages collates were you move to
> >> between the 3 events. That data might be taken from the roads
> >> system, or
> >> passports department, or even medicare, linking a few more
> goverment
> >> agencies. Then there is the question of the household income, so
> you
> >> also start to throw in the Tax department into the equation.
> >>
> >> Local goverments (Councils and the like) get their funding based on
> >> Census Data, now we all get rates notices and I am sure you could
> >> say,
> >> that local councils could provide that information to the
> >> commonwealth
> >> (as in a number) to get appropriate funding. The problem I have
> with
> >> that, is watching the behaviour of local councils recently, I can't
> >> honestly say that a large number of them wound'nt jack up their
> >> numbers
> >> to get more money. Also when you pay rates you are paying per
> >> house, but
> >> that doesn't tell you how many people live there or what services
> >> might
> >> be required for those residents.
> >>
> >> This is why the census happens, to keep these compeating interests
> >> apart. Also why the census is anonymous, as if they goverment had
> all
> >> this data linked, well I for one would not be happy.
> >>
> >> For the dash campagin we focus on religion, religion is on the
> >> census to
> >> assist the local goverment areas to know if they have the right
> >> type of
> >> religous services for their constitants. Having been involved with
> >> census stuff from March this year, working on the Dash campaign, I
> >> have
> >> seen an e-mail doing the rounds, that is now turning up on facebook
> >> telling Australian's to write a religion on their census, even if
> >> it is
> >> the one you were raised under because "1,000,000" Australian
> musliums
> >> will put down their faith, and you may end up with a mosque next
> >> door to
> >> your house! This is partially true, as funding for local religous
> >> groups
> >> is based on census data. Having said that, I think funding a stone
> >> circle in a public park is going to be a big ask. Also gotta
> appluade
> >> the peddelers of fear for making something that is so small a
> >> thing, a
> >> issue of discrimination.
> >>
> >> Maybe the recent talk about eCensus has inspired you, tell the
> census
> >> collector your going to do eCensus, you get an eCensus card but
> >> never do
> >> the eCensus.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Mark Hepworth
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > ____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________
> >
> > Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
> > http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html
> >
> > Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
> > http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/
> > 135651219624
> >
> > WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
> > several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
> > http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
> > http://www.witchesworkshop.com
> > __________________________________________________________
> >
> > The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
> > tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
> > communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
> > Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
> > to these principles & to notify owner.
> >
> > info@witchesworkshop.com
> > __________________________________________________________
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (17)
1f.

Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

Posted by: "Brock Ulfsen" brockulfsen@yahoo.com.au   brockulfsen

Thu Aug 4, 2011 10:02 pm (PDT)




On 05/08/2011, at 2:21 PM, Tim Hartridge wrote:
>
> Very recently a friend who 'outed' himself as a pagan on Facebook
> found himself on an abrupt and rude canceling of a work contract. It
> took him some six months to recover the lost work. He has since
> changed his Facebook id and separated a divide between work and his
> personal live.
>

It cuts both ways, I won't use a tradesman or professional with a
JeBus Fish on his business cards/advertising/ute.

I seek recommendations from Pagans, Secularists, Freethinkers and
Deviants for where I should spread my meagre wealth.

My GF is thinking of standing as a candidate in the upcoming
Queensland election for the Australian Sex Party, which will close
some doors to her in future, but not any she would have wanted to
wheel through with a wage slave's collar on her neck. Afterall a
prospective employer who would be put off by such an affiliation would
most likely also find her paganism unacceptable.

I would ask that pagans who discover discrimination call the
community's attention to it, and to share information that may impact
on us. An example would be the intimate ties between Gloria Jeans
coffee houses and Hillsong church & the notorious Mercy Ministries.

...Brock.

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (17)
1g.

Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

Posted by: "Matthieu Morelle" lucifervulus_sa_kage@yahoo.com.au   lucifervulus_sa_kage

Thu Aug 4, 2011 10:09 pm (PDT)



I am sure the government will email your boss saying hey just thought you should know but soandso is a pagan... You'd better fire him... In fact the census is really just a way to identify minority groups so Australia can start its own hallocaust. As for being good im sure our idea of being good and and ASIOs idea of good are the same unless of course your a terrorist or some sort of violent anti government psycho.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Hartridge
Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 14:21
To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

On 05/08/2011, at 1:06 PM, Matthieu Morelle wrote:

> Bit dramatic...
> Who cares who has a file on you? Be good and it won't matter. If
> its their policy to keep files on people with military training who
> fought with forgien countries, so what? Makes sense to me...

Hi Matthiew,
Err.. I'd raise a couple of points in response to your questions
(rhetorical or otherwise).

First, there is an alternative option from being identified in the
census (although I understand this is not a concern for you). The
census does provides this opt-out question (No. 60) so that
information, that might identify you, will not be kept.

Second, there are plenty of good reasons why having too much of your
Paganism 'out-of-the-closet' is not a good thing - which I'll explain.

> Your objections sound, at worst, like paranoid rantings or, at
> best, like the squeeling of a malcontent who just rocks the boat
> because he can.
> Really, what do you think that the government is going to do with
> the information that is so terrible you object to spending a couple
> of minutes filling out a form so the government can know more
> about the Australian demorgraphic?

Your earlier comment of "Be good and it won't matter" is a little
naive. What if your "being good" does not match the government's idea
of "being good". Not that long ago just practicing "witchcraft" was a
criminal offense in this country. I know from personal experience
exactly how this can play out. I consider myself lucky to have come
through this experience with a very positive out come. Of course
times have changed, but that does not necessary mean there is a
wholesale change of attitudes by employers, work colleagues, or clients.

Very recently a friend who 'outed' himself as a pagan on Facebook
found himself on an abrupt and rude canceling of a work contract. It
took him some six months to recover the lost work. He has since
changed his Facebook id and separated a divide between work and his
personal live.

My advice to students when undertaking my workshops is, "Don't tell
just anyone about your interests." That must extend to the
electronic forms of 'acquaintance' too. So this is no "paranoid
rantings", no these are the voices of experience speaking.

By all means fill-in "Pagan" in the form but, consider whether the
opt-out of retaining of your census information is for you.

vinum sabbati
Tim 'ozpagan' Hartridge

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: barbtrad
> Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 7:58
> To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census
> time again
>
>
> Hi Mark.
>
> Thanks for your in depth reply. Actually what it comes down too is
> whether or not governments can be trusted with information about
> one's self.. something... . personally I do not believe they can be.
>
> I wish your campaign all success, really I do, providing I'm not on
> any of the lists or any of my information is in the hands of Big
> Brother. I do see where you and Pagan Dash are coming from and will
> say straight up your intentions are good. I guess I have been
> shafted well and truly by successive governments hence my inherent
> distrust of government regardless of its political flavour.
>
> Asio maintains a file on me, despite my never ever having been a
> member of any sort of subversive organization, Hells Bells not even
> a political party of any kind. The reason? Well my rather hostile
> question was answered by saying it was because I had received
> certain training in the military and that I had been a member of a
> foreign military force..( I was seconded into American forces in
> Vietnam for a few months).. But I thought the Americans and us were
> on the same side???
>
> With apologies to Mr Harris and the paint commercial..Trust the
> government??? (insert drum roll on paint tin)..Sure can't!!!
>
> All the best Mark.
>
> Bill.
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Mark S Hepworth <mits@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> <Snipped to save bandwidth>
>>>
>>> You know Mark it isn't just the "Pagan" issue that pisses me off big
>>> time with the census: Their proposal that it is virtually just to
>>> count heads is bloody minded nonsense! They already have the
>>> statistics re births,deaths and immigration and migration. Simple
>>> sums
>>> would give them all the answers they need or indeed have any
>>> right to
>>> have. I shall once again put my devious mind to work avoiding
>>> filling
>>> out their impertinent bloody form.. and avoid incurring any penalty
>>> for failure to do so.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply ..Bill.
>>>
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> I can understand that, I have spoken to a few census collectors
>> who told
>> me that was their issue with the census and that is why the got
>> involved
>> to find out more.
>>
>> You are right, the register of Births, Death and Marriages as well as
>> the Immigration department would give you a number for population,
>> but
>> then you are talking about linking two goverment departments, which
>> gives me the willies to begin with, wasn't that why we rejected the
>> Australia card, as the State Roads departments and Medicare would
>> be linked?
>>
>> The other information in the Census is who lives in the area,
>> because I
>> don't think Birth's Death and marriages collates were you move to
>> between the 3 events. That data might be taken from the roads
>> system, or
>> passports department, or even medicare, linking a few more goverment
>> agencies. Then there is the question of the household income, so you
>> also start to throw in the Tax department into the equation.
>>
>> Local goverments (Councils and the like) get their funding based on
>> Census Data, now we all get rates notices and I am sure you could
>> say,
>> that local councils could provide that information to the
>> commonwealth
>> (as in a number) to get appropriate funding. The problem I have with
>> that, is watching the behaviour of local councils recently, I can't
>> honestly say that a large number of them wound'nt jack up their
>> numbers
>> to get more money. Also when you pay rates you are paying per
>> house, but
>> that doesn't tell you how many people live there or what services
>> might
>> be required for those residents.
>>
>> This is why the census happens, to keep these compeating interests
>> apart. Also why the census is anonymous, as if they goverment had all
>> this data linked, well I for one would not be happy.
>>
>> For the dash campagin we focus on religion, religion is on the
>> census to
>> assist the local goverment areas to know if they have the right
>> type of
>> religous services for their constitants. Having been involved with
>> census stuff from March this year, working on the Dash campaign, I
>> have
>> seen an e-mail doing the rounds, that is now turning up on facebook
>> telling Australian's to write a religion on their census, even if
>> it is
>> the one you were raised under because "1,000,000" Australian musliums
>> will put down their faith, and you may end up with a mosque next
>> door to
>> your house! This is partially true, as funding for local religous
>> groups
>> is based on census data. Having said that, I think funding a stone
>> circle in a public park is going to be a big ask. Also gotta appluade
>> the peddelers of fear for making something that is so small a
>> thing, a
>> issue of discrimination.
>>
>> Maybe the recent talk about eCensus has inspired you, tell the census
>> collector your going to do eCensus, you get an eCensus card but
>> never do
>> the eCensus.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark Hepworth
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________
>
> Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
> http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html
>
> Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/
> 135651219624
>
> WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
> several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
> http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
> http://www.witchesworkshop.com
> __________________________________________________________
>
> The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
> tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
> communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
> Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
> to these principles & to notify owner.
>
> info@witchesworkshop.com
> __________________________________________________________
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[The entire original message is not included.]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (17)
1h.

Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

Posted by: "Matthieu Morelle" lucifervulus_sa_kage@yahoo.com.au   lucifervulus_sa_kage

Thu Aug 4, 2011 10:35 pm (PDT)



Having your information accessible to later generations is optional

-----Original Message-----
From: Graham
Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 14:44
To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

Just another point to add to those you have made Tim and all - I thought I heard on the radio recently that the census data will be made accessible to future generations for ancestry research purposes <unless you specify your wishes otherwise on the form???> so it seems that this data could be more than just a compilation of short-term anonymous information, but a permanent record of the details of your response will be kept, thus providing an intimate profile of yourself for potential access by anyone for many years to come - for better or worse. Just thought I'd mention that as something to think about, and please all bear in mind that I may not be entirely correct in this, but it's just what I'm pretty sure I heard discussed on talk-back radio recently :)

BB, Graham.

________________________________
From: Tim Hartridge <ozpagan@ozpagan.com>
To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census time again

On 05/08/2011, at 1:06 PM, Matthieu Morelle wrote:

> Bit dramatic...
> Who cares who has a file on you? Be good and it won't matter. If
> its their policy to keep files on people with military training who
> fought with forgien countries, so what? Makes sense to me...

Hi Matthiew,
Err.. I'd raise a couple of points in response to your questions
(rhetorical or otherwise).

First, there is an alternative option from being identified in the
census (although I understand this is not a concern for you). The
census does provides this opt-out question (No. 60) so that
information, that might identify you, will not be kept.

Second, there are plenty of good reasons why having too much of your
Paganism 'out-of-the-closet' is not a good thing - which I'll explain.

> Your objections sound, at worst, like paranoid rantings or, at
> best, like the squeeling of a malcontent who just rocks the boat
> because he can.
> Really, what do you think that the government is going to do with
> the information that is so terrible you object to spending a couple
> of minutes filling out a form so the government can know more
> about the Australian demorgraphic?

Your earlier comment of "Be good and it won't matter" is a little
naive. What if your "being good" does not match the government's idea
of "being good". Not that long ago just practicing "witchcraft" was a
criminal offense in this country. I know from personal experience
exactly how this can play out. I consider myself lucky to have come
through this experience with a very positive out come. Of course
times have changed, but that does not necessary mean there is a
wholesale change of attitudes by employers, work colleagues, or clients.

Very recently a friend who 'outed' himself as a pagan on Facebook
found himself on an abrupt and rude canceling of a work contract. It
took him some six months to recover the lost work. He has since
changed his Facebook id and separated a divide between work and his
personal live.

My advice to students when undertaking my workshops is, "Don't tell
just anyone about your interests." That must extend to the
electronic forms of 'acquaintance' too. So this is no "paranoid
rantings", no these are the voices of experience speaking.

By all means fill-in "Pagan" in the form but, consider whether the
opt-out of retaining of your census information is for you.

vinum sabbati
Tim 'ozpagan' Hartridge

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: barbtrad
> Sent: Friday, 5 August 2011 7:58
> To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: Oh for joy, for joy, 'tis census
> time again
>
>
> Hi Mark.
>
> Thanks for your in depth reply. Actually what it comes down too is
> whether or not governments can be trusted with information about
> one's self.. something... . personally I do not believe they can be.
>
> I wish your campaign all success, really I do, providing I'm not on
> any of the lists or any of my information is in the hands of Big
> Brother. I do see where you and Pagan Dash are coming from and will
> say straight up your intentions are good. I guess I have been
> shafted well and truly by successive governments hence my inherent
> distrust of government regardless of its political flavour.
>
> Asio maintains a file on me, despite my never ever having been a
> member of any sort of subversive organization, Hells Bells not even
> a political party of any kind. The reason? Well my rather hostile
> question was answered by saying it was because I had received
> certain training in the military and that I had been a member of a
> foreign military force..( I was seconded into American forces in
> Vietnam for a few months).. But I thought the Americans and us were
> on the same side???
>
> With apologies to Mr Harris and the paint commercial..Trust the
> government??? (insert drum roll on paint tin)..Sure can't!!!
>
> All the best Mark.
>
> Bill.
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Mark S Hepworth <mits@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> <Snipped to save bandwidth>
>>>
>>> You know Mark it isn't just the "Pagan" issue that pisses me off big
>>> time with the census: Their proposal that it is virtually just to
>>> count heads is bloody minded nonsense! They already have the
>>> statistics re births,deaths and immigration and migration. Simple
>>> sums
>>> would give them all the answers they need or indeed have any
>>> right to
>>> have. I shall once again put my devious mind to work avoiding
>>> filling
>>> out their impertinent bloody form.. and avoid incurring any penalty
>>> for failure to do so.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply ..Bill.
>>>
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> I can understand that, I have spoken to a few census collectors
>> who told
>> me that was their issue with the census and that is why the got
>> involved
>> to find out more.
>>
>> You are right, the register of Births, Death and Marriages as well as
>> the Immigration department would give you a number for population,
>> but
>> then you are talking about linking two goverment departments, which
>> gives me the willies to begin with, wasn't that why we rejected the
>> Australia card, as the State Roads departments and Medicare would
>> be linked?
>>
>> The other information in the Census is who lives in the area,
>> because I
>> don't think Birth's Death and marriages collates were you move to
>> between the 3 events. That data might be taken from the roads
>> system, or
>> passports department, or even medicare, linking a few more goverment
>> agencies. Then there is the question of the household income, so you
>> also start to throw in the Tax department into the equation.
>>
>> Local goverments (Councils and the like) get their funding based on
>> Census Data, now we all get rates notices and I am sure you could
>> say,
>> that local councils could provide that information to the
>> commonwealth
>> (as in a number) to get appropriate funding. The problem I have with
>> that, is watching the behaviour of local councils recently, I can't
>> honestly say that a large number of them wound'nt jack up their
>> numbers
>> to get more money. Also when you pay rates you are paying per
>> house, but
>> that doesn't tell you how many people live there or what services
>> might
>> be required for those residents.
>>
>> This is why the census happens, to keep these compeating interests
>> apart. Also why the census is anonymous, as if they goverment had all
>> this data linked, well I for one would not be happy.
>>
>> For the dash campagin we focus on religion, religion is on the
>> census to
>> assist the local goverment areas to know if they have the right
>> type of
>> religous services for their constitants. Having been involved with
>> census stuff from March this year, working on the Dash campaign, I
>> have
>> seen an e-mail doing the rounds, that is now turning up on facebook
>> telling Australian's to write a religion on their census, even if
>> it is
>> the one you were raised under because "1,000,000" Australian musliums
>> will put down their faith, and you may end up with a mosque next
>> door to
>> your house! This is partially true, as funding for local religous
>> groups
>> is based on census data. Having said that, I think funding a stone
>> circle in a public park is going to be a big ask. Also gotta appluade
>> the peddelers of fear for making something that is so small a
>> thing, a
>> issue of discrimination.
>>
>> Maybe the recent talk about eCensus has inspired you, tell the census
>> collector your going to do eCensus, you get an eCensus card but
>> never do
>> the eCensus.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark Hepworth
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________
>
> Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
> http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html
>
> Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/
> 135651219624
>
> WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
> several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
> http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
> http://www.witchesworkshop.com
> __________________________________________________________
>
> The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
> tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
> communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
> Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
> to these principles & to notify owner.
>
> info@witchesworkshop.com
> __________________________________________________________
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[The entire original message is not included.]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (17)
2a.

Re: "I'm Pagan, count me in!"

Posted by: "Helgs" helgarh@yahoo.com   helgarh

Thu Aug 4, 2011 3:34 pm (PDT)



Hi Mark,
 
That is different to what my Census lady told me.  I was invited to do the survey on line BEFORE the official date.  She also said that if I elected to complete on line she would be notified and that would save her coming back to collect the form.  As I haven't checked the site out as yet I can't offer any other information.    Also, one of my daughters is always out with sport, etc. and after (supposedly a number of attempts to catch her at home) her Census form was left on the doorstep the other night.  So much for not leaving a form when no one is home.
 
Helgs
 
P.S.  Love your e-mail addy!

 
From: Mark S Hepworth <mits@parraletic.net>
To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2011 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: "I'm Pagan, count me in!"

Hi Bri,

That is what I thought as well, but I read a blog today saying that the
census collector left the form and an ecensus envelope for the person.
Either way though, as I have written on the Dash site, the census
collector has to return to pick up the paper form. If you are there when
the collector comes and you tell them you are going to do eCensus, the
Census collector does not return, that is a point that has been widely
publicised.

Regards,
Mark

On 4/08/2011 4:18 PM, Bri King wrote:
>
> Yes there is an envelope they give you with a number inside it and you
> need
> it to complete the online questions. Not sure if they will leave the
> manual
> form or the online envelope at your home if there is no one there. I am
> pretty sure you have to be there in person to get the online envelope as
> they ask you if you want to fill in the form or do it online and then give
> you the appropriate paperwork.
>
> Bri
>
> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Caroline Tully <heliade@bigpond.com
> <mailto:heliade%40bigpond.com>> wrote:
>
> > Re: the eCensus card... will I need some sort of login number? Why do I
> > need the card? I' d better word up my people back at home to watch
> out for
> > it....
> >
> > ~Caroline.
> >
> >
> > > Caroline, the Census is to be completed on the 9th of August.
> There is a
> > > posability that the census collector will leave your form and eCensus
> > > card on the doorstep for you to complete.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > ____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________
> >
> > Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
> > http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html
> >
> > Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
> >
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/135651219624
> >
> > WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
> > several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
> > http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
> > http://www.witchesworkshop.com
> > __________________________________________________________
> >
> > The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
> > tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
> > communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
> > Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
> > to these principles & to notify owner.
> >
> > info@witchesworkshop.com <mailto:info%40witchesworkshop.com>
> > __________________________________________________________
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> BA, BSW, Grad Dip Soc Sci
> M. Counselling
>
> Pomegranate Counselling & Consultancy
>
> www.fatlotofgood.org.au
>
> ScarlettHeartt Photography
> www.redbubble.com/people/scarlettheartt
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________

Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html

Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/135651219624

WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
http://www.witchesworkshop.com
__________________________________________________________

The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our 
communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
to these principles & to notify owner.

info@witchesworkshop.com
__________________________________________________________

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (19)
2b.

Re: "I'm Pagan, count me in!"

Posted by: "Mark S Hepworth" mits@parraletic.net   mitswitchlist

Thu Aug 4, 2011 6:55 pm (PDT)



Hello Helgs,

I received my Census information when I got home last night, and while
the census site here
http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/censushome.nsf/home/2011%20Census%20-%20Participate
says the census collector wont come back. What I was told is they will
get an SMS telling them when the census has been filled out and that is
why they don't come back. Might have to see if an update is need to the
pagandash.org.au website under census tips.

Gotta say, I don't want to be a Census collectors phone next tuesday, it
might go into meltdown!.

Caroline this is from the ABS and may help you.
http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/censushome.nsf/home/2011%20Census%20-%20Media%20Release%20-%20CO-43

Regards,
Mark Hepworth

On 5/08/2011 8:34 AM, Helgs wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> That is different to what my Census lady told me. I was invited to do
> the survey on line BEFORE the official date. She also said that if I
> elected to complete on line she would be notified and that would save
> her coming back to collect the form. As I haven't checked the site
> out as yet I can't offer any other information. Also, one of my
> daughters is always out with sport, etc. and after (supposedly a
> number of attempts to catch her at home) her Census form was left on
> the doorstep the other night. So much for not leaving a form when no
> one is home.
>
> Helgs
>
> P.S. Love your e-mail addy!
>
>
> From: Mark S Hepworth <mits@parraletic.net <mailto:mits%40parraletic.net>>
> To: WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:WitchesWorkshop%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2011 4:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [WitchesWorkshop] Re: "I'm Pagan, count me in!"
>
> Hi Bri,
>
> That is what I thought as well, but I read a blog today saying that the
> census collector left the form and an ecensus envelope for the person.
> Either way though, as I have written on the Dash site, the census
> collector has to return to pick up the paper form. If you are there when
> the collector comes and you tell them you are going to do eCensus, the
> Census collector does not return, that is a point that has been widely
> publicised.
>
> Regards,
> Mark
>
> On 4/08/2011 4:18 PM, Bri King wrote:
> >
> > Yes there is an envelope they give you with a number inside it and you
> > need
> > it to complete the online questions. Not sure if they will leave the
> > manual
> > form or the online envelope at your home if there is no one there. I am
> > pretty sure you have to be there in person to get the online envelope as
> > they ask you if you want to fill in the form or do it online and
> then give
> > you the appropriate paperwork.
> >
> > Bri
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Caroline Tully <heliade@bigpond.com
> <mailto:heliade%40bigpond.com>
> > <mailto:heliade%40bigpond.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > Re: the eCensus card... will I need some sort of login number? Why
> do I
> > > need the card? I' d better word up my people back at home to watch
> > out for
> > > it....
> > >
> > > ~Caroline.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Caroline, the Census is to be completed on the 9th of August.
> > There is a
> > > > posability that the census collector will leave your form and
> eCensus
> > > > card on the doorstep for you to complete.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > ____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________
> > >
> > > Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
> > > http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html
> > >
> > > Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
> > >
> >
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/135651219624
> > >
> > > WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
> > > several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
> > > http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
> > > http://www.witchesworkshop.com
> > > __________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
> > > tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
> > > communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
> > > Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
> > > to these principles & to notify owner.
> > >
> > > info@witchesworkshop.com <mailto:info%40witchesworkshop.com>
> <mailto:info%40witchesworkshop.com>
> > > __________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > BA, BSW, Grad Dip Soc Sci
> > M. Counselling
> >
> > Pomegranate Counselling & Consultancy
> >
> > www.fatlotofgood.org.au
> >
> > ScarlettHeartt Photography
> > www.redbubble.com/people/scarlettheartt
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________
>
> Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
> http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html
>
> Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/135651219624
>
> WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
> several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
> http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
> http://www.witchesworkshop.com
> __________________________________________________________
>
> The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
> tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our
> communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
> Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
> to these principles & to notify owner.
>
> info@witchesworkshop.com <mailto:info%40witchesworkshop.com>
> __________________________________________________________
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (19)
2c.

Re: "I'm Pagan, count me in!"

Posted by: "Helgs" helgarh@yahoo.com   helgarh

Thu Aug 4, 2011 7:15 pm (PDT)



I received my Census information when I got home last night, and while
the census site here
http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/censushome.nsf/home/2011%20Census%20-%20Participate
says the census collector wont come back. What I was told is they will
get an SMS telling them when the census has been filled out and that is
why they don't come back.
 
 
Thanks Mark.  Now we know how it works.
 
Helgs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (19)
2d.

Re: "I'm Pagan, count me in!"

Posted by: "adeintheshade@gmail.com" adeintheshade@gmail.com   pa_nsw

Thu Aug 4, 2011 7:18 pm (PDT)




Hi Caroline, My understanding of the census is that it is a snapshot of the 9th of August for those in the country.

It's not like voting where you can do so if you are overseas.

This is from the ABS site:
"As you will be overseas on Census night you are not required to complete the Census form. The purpose of the 2011 Census is to capture a snapshot of Australia as it is on 9 August. Any residents out of the country on Census night are out of the scope.

If there will be other people in your dwelling on Census night they will need to include you in Questions 52 and 53 on the form, which detail persons who usually live in the dwelling but were absent on Census Night."

Hope that is useful but Caroline, I think you miss out this time

bb
adrianne

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "Caroline Tully" <heliade@...> wrote:
>
> I will say Pagan-Witch.
>
> ~Caroline.
>
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "Ozpagan" <ozpagan@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Mark S Hepworth <mits@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Firstly Tim, thank you for the push. We have been working on the Pagan -
> > > campaign for a while now and it is great to see the general pagan
> > > community coming on board and supporting it. We really hope to make
> > > another big jump in numbers like we did from 1996 - 2001 but as long as
> > > it is steady or a rises I will be happy.
> >
> >
> > Hi Mark and WW,
> >
> > I have been identifying myself as a Pagan-Witch in the Australian census since the early 1970s, and would never consider doing otherwise. I have been a little surprised and disturbed by a number of pagan acquaintances who have admitted they placed things like "Church of England" and "Catholic" down in past census.
> >
> > While I haven't written them off as 'pagans', I really feel now is a time to use this opportunity to try gain legitimate recognition and be counted among the many orthodox faiths.
> >
> > Some people may have concerns over standing-out in crowd; while it's never been much of a concern to me - I was already publicly known as a Witch. The concern about personal privacy is nevertheless real and the census paper does provides for this with an 'opt-out' question (No. 60) so that any information that might identify you will not be kept. Great foresight on the part of the ABS.
> >
> > I'd love to get more feedback from members about their views and how they will mark the census paper?
> >
> > vinum sabbati,
> > "Pagan-Witch" Tim
> >
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (19)
2e.

Re: "I'm Pagan, count me in!"

Posted by: "Caroline Tully" heliade@bigpond.com   willowitch2001

Fri Aug 5, 2011 2:58 am (PDT)



How will they even tell if I'm overseas? Anyway, that's fine, I can just get another person to fill it in at my place.

~Caroline.

--- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, adeintheshade@... wrote:
>
>
> Hi Caroline, My understanding of the census is that it is a snapshot of the 9th of August for those in the country.
>
> It's not like voting where you can do so if you are overseas.
>
> This is from the ABS site:
> "As you will be overseas on Census night you are not required to complete the Census form. The purpose of the 2011 Census is to capture a snapshot of Australia as it is on 9 August. Any residents out of the country on Census night are out of the scope.
>
> If there will be other people in your dwelling on Census night they will need to include you in Questions 52 and 53 on the form, which detail persons who usually live in the dwelling but were absent on Census Night."
>
> Hope that is useful but Caroline, I think you miss out this time
>
> bb
> adrianne
>
>
> --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "Caroline Tully" <heliade@> wrote:
> >
> > I will say Pagan-Witch.
> >
> > ~Caroline.
> >
> >
> > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, "Ozpagan" <ozpagan@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In WitchesWorkshop@yahoogroups.com, Mark S Hepworth <mits@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Firstly Tim, thank you for the push. We have been working on the Pagan -
> > > > campaign for a while now and it is great to see the general pagan
> > > > community coming on board and supporting it. We really hope to make
> > > > another big jump in numbers like we did from 1996 - 2001 but as long as
> > > > it is steady or a rises I will be happy.
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Mark and WW,
> > >
> > > I have been identifying myself as a Pagan-Witch in the Australian census since the early 1970s, and would never consider doing otherwise. I have been a little surprised and disturbed by a number of pagan acquaintances who have admitted they placed things like "Church of England" and "Catholic" down in past census.
> > >
> > > While I haven't written them off as 'pagans', I really feel now is a time to use this opportunity to try gain legitimate recognition and be counted among the many orthodox faiths.
> > >
> > > Some people may have concerns over standing-out in crowd; while it's never been much of a concern to me - I was already publicly known as a Witch. The concern about personal privacy is nevertheless real and the census paper does provides for this with an 'opt-out' question (No. 60) so that any information that might identify you will not be kept. Great foresight on the part of the ABS.
> > >
> > > I'd love to get more feedback from members about their views and how they will mark the census paper?
> > >
> > > vinum sabbati,
> > > "Pagan-Witch" Tim
> > >
> >
>

Back to top
Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
Messages in this topic (19)
Recent Activity
Visit Your Group
Give Back

Yahoo! for Good

Get inspired

by a good cause.

Y! Toolbar

Get it Free!

easy 1-click access

to your groups.

Yahoo! Groups

Start a group

in 3 easy steps.

Connect with others.

Need to Reply?

Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the Daily Digest.

Create New Topic | Visit Your Group on the Web
____________________ ooo)(0({O})0)(ooo____________________

Witches Workshop hold regular workshops see
http://www.witchesworkshop.com/Circle/circle_workshop.html

Keep up to date via our WitchesWorshop Facebook Page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sydney-Australia/WitchesWorkshop/135651219624

WitchesWorkshop and Witch Camp Australia also run camps
several times a year - check out our websites for updates.
http://www.witchcampaustralia.org.au
http://www.witchesworkshop.com
___________________________________________________________

The WitchesWorkshop egroup holds the expectation that a
tolerant and respectful dialogue be strived for in our  
communication with other pagans, witches magicians, et al.
Members are encouraged to challenge anyone not adhering
to these principles & to notify owner.

info@witchesworkshop.com
___________________________________________________________

Publicat de la

Niciun comentariu:

Trimiteți un comentariu

Abonați-vă la: Postare comentarii (Atom)